There is No Grace Camp

hyper-grace

I want to thank those of you who took the time to comment on my Michael Brown post over the weekend. That post evidently resonated with many. Within 48 hours of publication it had attracted 250 comments. To put that in perspective, that’s almost as many comments as the original CharismaNews article got in a week.

If you missed the hubbub, Michael Brown wrote an opinion piece confronting what he calls the error of hyper-grace, namely, that the notion that God sees us as holy and righteous. Michael disagrees. “God sees our sin,” says Michael. “Consequently, we need to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates.”

I took issue with this because it suggests that God relates to us on the basis of our behavior and that we have to clean ourselves up before God will accept us. To be fair, Michael never said this, but his message nonetheless amounts to putting a price-tag on God’s love and acceptance.

Where the Bible puts exclamation marks – “God loves you!” – Michael put question marks: “Really? Always? 24-7? God always loves what he sees when he looks at his people?”

Anyway, what followed was a stimulating discussion from people like you. I have now had a chance to read through all the comments several times and I have learned a lot. As I keep saying, E2R readers are a smart bunch! The wisdom some of you have amazes me. I am truly blessed to receive from you.

I also want to thank those of you who encouraged me on my Facebook page on Sunday. After reading one particularly nasty and personal comment (don’t look for it, you won’t find it), my countenance dropped. I get called names all the time and normally it doesn’t bother me. But on Sunday it did and I was gloomy for 10 minutes. Some of you picked up on that and you sought to lift my chin.

Thank you. You’re beautiful.

Jesus Camp

On Monday morning and with a clear head I sat down to distill some of the lessons I learned over the weekend. I’m not yet prepared to share those lessons except for one, and here it is:

As my friend Steve Hackman pointed out in his own response to Michael Brown, the “grace camp” label is horrible. When I went back and reread my article that phrase was the one thing I just had to change. (In the revised post I now refer to the grace movement. I know, it’s hardly an improvement. Got any better ideas?)

Why do I dislike “grace camp”? Because there is no grace camp. There’s just Jesus and we’re all one in Christ. If you trust in Jesus, you’re in the Jesus Camp and it’s the only camp.

Grace is meant to be inclusive. All are welcome in the House of Grace because Jesus died for all of us. The moment we allow ourselves to be defined as a special camp, we start swinging towards an unChristlike exclusivity, like we’re a country club or something.

Manmade religion draws lines between Us and Them but the grace of God tears down dividing walls. I know we’re not all going to see eye to eye, but I don’t want to contribute to a culture that perpetuates fracture lines within the body of Christ. If you see me talking about grace camps again, please remind me of Galatians 3:28.

What about hyper-grace?

Michael never called us a grace camp – that was my own stupid fault – but he does describe us with the label “hyper-grace.” What do you think about this? Personally, I’m in two minds. I think any label is demeaning. The moment we label people we diminish them, we reduce them to caricatures.

“You’re in the hyper-grace camp? So you’re one of those who says we can sin freely and God will still love us. I read about you turkeys on Charisma.”

Yeah, that’s real helpful. I am already paying the price for this cartoon-like rendition of the grace message in the form of time-wasting comments from misguided folks who think we advocate sin.

[Sidebar: You may be aware that this morning CharismaNews published a second piece from Michael. In this article he worries that the message of grace which we preach is unbalanced, as evidenced by the sinful fruit of those who have abused it. Michael seems to think that the abuse of the gospel Jesus revealed and Paul preached is a new thing. I have just one word to say in response to that: Corinthians.]

On the other hand, we may find ourselves stuck with the label hyper-grace much like the believers of Antioch were stuck with the label “Christian.” If that is the case – if you are about to be permanently branded by others as “hyper-grace” – how do you feel about that? Are you happy about it? Do you find it objectionable? Are you cool with it?

To get a conversation started, here are some thoughts from those who commented under the last post:

  • Titus 2:11-12 says grace is a person called Jesus. Thus hyper-grace maybe also called hyper-Jesus. Does this mean there is such thing as “too much Jesus”? Or such a thing as “relying on Jesus too much”? … Hyper (also) means “abounds,” so I guess the name is appropriate because the Scripture says, “Grace super-abounds!” ~Joseph Librero
  • The whole concept of “hyper-grace” being a bad thing is silly! The lengths to which God chose to go in Grace for us (to the death) is pretty “hyper,” is it not?! ~JGIG
  • Wasn’t Paul accused of preaching hyper-grace? (see Romans 3:8, 5:20-6:2) ~John Long
  • I am dead to sin. I have a righteousness conscience. I feel free. Free from sin. That’s hyper-grace. Thank you Jesus. ~ Phillip Waite

So far the vibe seems to be generally positive. But what do you think of this term hyper-grace?

Is it something to embrace, resist, or accept? Does it hinder the gospel by suggesting we’re an exclusive camp within the Body of Christ? Or does it promote the gospel by accurately conveying the way grace operates – energetically and actively? I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Comments

  1. Susy Barnhill says:

    I thank God for you every day Paul. Your website has changed my life to be so much more richer and abundant in receiving what Christ already did for me and all humanity. I agree with you “there is no grace camp” there is just JESUS and HIS amazing love for His creation. There are really not words to describe how awesome it is truly it!

    Susy

  2. So good there is no “grace camp”. Don’t worry bro. we know what you meant! If people can see that Grace is a Person. “Jesus”. Eyes would be opened!

  3. John Huckle says:

    Since the term “hyper-grace” is not in the Bible I don’t care for it. The Bible just calls it simply grace. When folks use the term hyper-grace it is a tip-off they don’t fully understand the Gospel. I would leave it at that. Some would rather believe a religious Gospel than the real deal.

  4. Trying to see how any kind of grace would work on believers who willfully sin. Sinning while covered in grace? Maybe why everyone is so hyped up on the topic. So much Repentance is lacking in so many camps…,

  5. Maryanne Manikoth says:

    Paul Ellis, your posts and teachings have been such a blessing to us, My family and I agree with you on the subject of Grace. Keep your chin up, we are praying for you and your ministry, Since you asked, instead of ‘hyper-grace’, how about “Super-abounding Grace”.. the world has its super-heroes, we have ‘Super-abounding Grace’!!

  6. How about The Gospel of Grace that Jesus revealed to Paul

  7. I kind of like hyper-grace because when I first had my eyes opened to grace I quickly found there were different uses of the word depending on denomination or author. But it is polarizing and maybe we should just stick to grace while explaining what we mean when we use it. Love the article.
    I wonder why people always have to point out the few bad examples when they talk about grace. I could point out truck loads of bad examples of works-worry-trying to earn God’s acceptance people. Christians sin ONLY the grace aware folks seem to get that, aren’t afraid of it, then forgive and move on.

  8. I don’t like labels but the world does so we get one. I have to correct people’s perception of me as a Christian all the time as they immediately think I’m religious, following rules, laws, liturgy, rituals and the like. I usually say something like I love Jesus and will never be the old Jan again to get the conversation started. I don’t like hyper-grace at all. Hyper has a derogatory overtone here like over the top. Balanced and respectful Christians here say we’re over the top because they don’t approve of our freedom either in worship or victorious living, expecting our prayers to be answered, present day miracles etc. If we must have a label then I would prefer Jesuits but that’s already taken! I think for the purpose of being prepared to say what we stand for we need to describe ourselves somehow so how about the good old “amazing grace” camp? I will give it some more thought. Thanks Paul, you have encouraged our little group more than you know.

  9. Two points about “Hyper-Grace”, I’ve always thought, and said from the pulpit, that the Gospel is ridiculous. God loves us an unreasonable amount. What He did was unbalanced. I embrace the ridiculousness of grace.
    Second, in high school someone tagged me with a demeaning nickname. I got my friends to start using it and soon all sting was taken out of the term and all the fun was taken from my potential tormentors. I think hyper-grace is a great name.

  10. Doug Thompson says:

    I think I’ll make t-shirts printed with I’m a hyper-graver!

  11. Hi Paul, the way i see it is that there tends to be extremes with most movements until the pendulum returns to a place of balance. The Pentecostal movement had it’s own extremes mostly from the issue of tongues. It also tends to be the followers who take the teaching of leaders to an extreme.
    When something new surfaces that we don’t understand, it can make us feel insecure. Our natural reaction is to try and control and strangle it before it can become established.
    Thankfully God will make sure this will not happen with grace. The cork has been taken out of the bottle and it’s not going back in.
    I suppose you are now getting a taste of what the apostle Paul had to live with all his life from the Judaizers. Lol!

  12. To me it is not hyper-grace, but rather a long neglected truth in the church. When Grace is put into a real life scenario – that is, how does this grace message look in practical living, I can’t help but comment. I’m an old Christian, both in human years and in terms of my life journey with Christ. I’ve loved Jesus and wanted sincerely to be all that He wanted me to be since I was 12. After many years on the journey where I performed as a solid Christian (or so I thought) I was in church when the doors were open, I did all of the praying, teaching, Bible Study, serving others, one would expect of an active, zealous Christian. I even went to the mission field and served in a very remote area. But notice which pronoun is used most….. I …..but then I fell, I made some really stupid choices, sin choices. About a year after my sin, (not just wrong choices) I sincerely thought I was lost and totally rejected by God. I was miserable and heartbroken at what I had done. It was like all of my years trying to be all that God wanted me to be was lost. And then God led me to a church where, in a home group, I began to learn about God’s grace. I began to realize in a very practical way that as the church in Galatia I had been trying to perform my way into spiritual maturity. Sure I knew I was saved by Grace, but I had no concept of then being made righteous by His grace. It was such an eye opener that as I spent time in prayer and seeking truth for myself out of this new teaching (not really new, but certainly new in the sense of self application) I began to know that all of my sins were under His blood and that when Jesus died it was for all of my sins as a human, past, spent and future – His blood had covered the lot. Does that mean I have a license now to sin without worry, as Paul said by no means. I want to live a life pleasing to him even more because I now walk in that love that paid the ultimate price. There is now, no condemnation to those who walk in Christ Jesus. It is not about my performance it is about His glory and honor and the love He has shown me. Grace alone can bring me to the feet of my Savior, not my performance, no matter how hard I try or how sincere I am. Thank you Paul for providing a web influence like this – I have no doubt it can and will touch many lives.

    • Halleluia Alicia, very similar to my experience but when I returned feeling like the prodigal only worse my old church sent me packing! Grace came by going heartbroken to Jesus and receiving directly from him and then he gave me people who really loved me, grace people. Thanks for sharing. Jesus is awesome :)

    • nichols1 says:

      Wonderful post!

  13. I don’t like a label either, as John Huckle as shared. But a wee while ago I told God that I’d follow Him anywhere, even if it meant suffering reproach (such was my fervent seriousness, lol), and the Holy Spirit gently said, “and ignominy?” which sent me scurrying to my dictionary…

    Jesus suffered ignominy and reproach because of His message, and that from the religious, self-righteous of the day. Although I keep it squarely in mind that *I* too became self-righteous and religious for a time, I do understand that to preach extravagant grace as God intends me to, I will be slandered. And I am actually happy about it, because it lines me right up with Jesus: “Happy are ye whenever they may reproach you, and may persecute, and may say any evil thing against you falsely for my sake.” Matt 5:11 YLT

  14. I’m not concerned with name calling. Careful study of the Scripture will reveal the only persecution Jesus suffered (prior to the garden) was name calling. I believe it does not matter one bit, because people will be more affect by our actions than what we are called.

  15. Michael Crass says:

    How about God’s pure, limitless, infinite grace!

  16. ya, we know your kind paul,my mother used to have a name for your kind,lets just say it had to do with stirring manure. hang in there Bro.
    to make my view simple
    1. you get saved
    2.so now your in the family
    3. then you begin, through different things that begin to happen, how helpless you really are, and that nothing lasts but the grace of God
    4. so in the grace you begin to see your freedom.
    because your foundation is the rock.
    5 and your head begins to clear,and a lot of the fear etc begins to fade.

    forget the numbers

    anyway, your purpose, your gift, your talent,etc becomes clear so with all the bs gone you begin to function the way God intended you to function.
    last thing,god doesnt want his children to to be brats,so he begins to train and disipline us.to be like big brother which is by grace.you dont get kicked out of the family,you my not get as far as he wanted you to, but you dont go to hell. I am beginning to fathom the depth and height of Gods grace and Love,and man I dont see the bottom. were does it end? I dont know.

    PS; sorry didnt mean to stir more up.

  17. trailrunner1983 says:

    How about calling it God’s measureless, limitless, and infinite grace! I feel sorry for those who limit and belittle God’s grace. If you aren’t preaching grace, you aren’t preaching the gospel.

  18. its Grace…superabounding, radical and amazing!
    if we wanted to get biblically technichal… we could call ourselves “those who have entered through the narrow gate”… and im laughing because, when i read it, i hear it in gandalf’s voice! :)

  19. 1. To say that because you sin and it is wrong that God doesn’t love you, isn’t what Dr. Brown advocates does he? Does he say that in his articles?

    God loves you whether or not you go to heaven or hell. He loves all. So “what’s love got to do with it?” It seems to be irrelevant in the topic.

    2. Hasn’t he said he doesn’t come against people just teachings. You have made it about us vs. them. Where you may be a grace teacher that has adopted some bad teaching. But not necessarily throwing you out with the teachings. I think from all that I have heard and I have looked at both sides, he has continually said the teaching of grace has set people free. Yet it is the hyper grace that is dangerous to people.

    • the scribes and pharisees thought Jesus was dangerous to people too…
      ;)

    • But if someone comes and attacks your beliefs saying that they are dangerous error that is not an “us vs. them” thing? Dr. Brown started this. Paul Ellis is just explaining and defending the truth.

  20. Paul, thank you for continuing in the truth of grace. I believe a number of years ago it was the “hyper-faith’ and the ‘name it and claim it’ labels that abounded. It is first and foremost grace and it is last and only grace! Grace is freedom, and as someone said, “Freedom isn’t freedom until you are free to fail.” People are afraid of grace; they are afraid to allow people the freedom to fail. Grace is spiritual; grace is relying on the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which has set us free from the law of sin and death. I’m glad I’m free in Christ, yes, even to fail! Grace is ‘super-abounding’ and it goes above and beyond anything that we could ever ask, think or hope!! Labels come and labels go..but grace will ever abide!

  21. David - Wales says:

    Hi Paul, I don’t consider I can describe myself as – being saved, coming to faith, evangelical, charismatic, born again, pre / post, modern, hyper or any other word, phrase or inadequate terminology that boxes me up or categorises me. I’m simply a follower of Jesus; my relationship with Him is of highest priority. And yes, I am institutionally challenged.

    Substitutionary grace is a figment of a fear filled imagination. Perfect love casts out……

    The practice of substitution is the devils best invention. When our experience of Jesus doesn’t match our expectation (that we invariably were sold by others), we rush off down Substitute Street, ending up in one of the cul-de-sacs – Legal Lane, Church Way, Bible Boulevard, Good Works Path etc. Due to lack of spiritual maintenance most of the cul-de-sacs have deep ruts . It is difficult to get out of the ruts and we are easily fooled into thinking we must be on the right track as so many others have passed this way. There is a proliferation of dressing up OT legalism in NT terminology.

  22. What bothers me most about Dr Browns article is that if God is not happy with us at times, Where do you draw the line? what “sins” make Him unhappy? just the big ones? If you take that to the logical end then He would NEVER be happy with us because we are always blowing it. So it reveals a works/self righteous attitude which is law in my Bible. (Eph 2:8,9 would go great here)This is why we need Grace and trust through faith that God is happy and in love with us no matter what. When I realize I;ve not been living by faith (the real only sin) I don’t have to be guilt ridden for 2 weeks before I can come before Him. I can go to Father and know He says I love and accept you just the way you are and fall right into His arms. Does this sound like something that makes us want to sin? It seems to me the real big sins being commited are not in the “grace camp” but in the institutional church? So I don’t know who he is refering to about hyper gracers living in all kinds of sin. If we are “Hyper Grace” what are they? Hyper religous? Hyper law?

  23. How about “greater grace” James 4:6 NASB?

  24. The message Paul preaches is the Gospel. That is, the finished work of Christ. All faith, no work. Others preach and have heard a different “gospel” their whole life, a message mixed with law.

    I don’t think labels are helpful. They lead to categorizing people and thus we’re able to write them off easier (and others will be able to write us off easier). I think it’s un-glorifying, unloving, and perhaps even dehumanizing. I think it will be more beneficial, rather than accepting the hyper-grace term, to say that we are simply promoting the gospel, the original good news. I think that will create and attract more curiosity and more readers than accepting a label, and thus I think it will be more beneficial for Christianity as a whole if we work from this orientation/perception – that is that we are simply preaching the original happy good news! Make sense?

  25. Grace Place for me :)

  26. ‘You’re hyper-grace, let me get you some spiritual Ritalin…’

  27. Josef hauner says:

    I spent 30 some years TRRYYIIINNNGGG to be a good Christian because of my mixture understanding of law and grace. I was never a fully law oriented person but I had enough law and sin consciousness to keep me defeated. When I discovered the real gospel I got free and realized that what I had been striving for on my own strength and could never quite reach, Jesus had already done for me. OH what a relief it is. It is not about what I do it is all about what Jesus did for me. He got the perfect report card and gave it to all of us as a free gift. Yea God!

  28. We could call ourselves grace believers

  29. Phillip Waite – well said! I concur!

    Alicia – I’ve never read a post that so perfectly parallels my own heart and my own story. I completely agree and feel that same way.

    Being raised in a shame based religion and experiencing a lot of spiritual abuse caused tremendous fear and doubt in my life. Praise God I found grace. Oops! I didn’t find grace – He found me!!! Yay! I am so much happier (a nice by-product) and productive as a human being and believer. I no longer live in fear, shame or guilt that I won’t please Him. I’ve been trying (lots of work and I was so tired) to please Him for many years.

    For Paul – I personally like the term hyper-grace because that’s how I feel about it. You described it beautifully – it promotes the gospel by accurately conveying the way grace operates – energetically and actively. I love this picture – flowing in the energy of the Holy Spirit. I love life when I’m in that flow of Grace! Even though I don’t care for labels – something inside me wants to agree with Joel above – take it on! The problem I see is that some people won’t see it the way we do and yet that is always going to happen.

    Also, in regard to suggesting we are an exclusive camp within the body of Christ – it seems like it might alienate people before they even have the chance to hear the gospel of Grace.

    Within the body of Christ there are many differing beliefs regarding different aspects and interpretations of grace and scripture in general for that matter. I agree with Dr. Brown on so many things (that I’ve read) but the big difference for me was when he said we could lose our salvation. That’s a frightening belief – I’ve been there and wondered and fretted in fear whether I would qualify. I never felt like I quite measured up. That belief affects your life negatively in so many ways…so, I refuse to go there again – hyper-grace is what I want! Jesus is explicit on that as far as I’m concerned beginning with John 3:16.

    As we keep preaching Jesus and His amazing gifts of grace and righteousness and pray that more and more people will not only hear the message of pure grace but will respond to it – it (the movement) will keep growing. He is working in the world mightily and that
    becomes more and more obvious by all the negative responses to the message of amazing Grace – Jesus Himself and His work on our behalf.

    I first read Joseph Prince’s book and then I connected with your website and Cornel’s. I’ve been so blessed by the teaching of pure Grace. Please keep it up and know you are blessed and a blessing!

  30. Just a thought… Romans 5:20 states where sin abounds, Grace abounds much more (or super-abounds) – that word for superabounds is “huperperisseuo” – The first part of the word “huper” is actually where the word “hyper” is derived from – so calling people who believe in the superabundance of grace “hyper-grace” is not really an insult, no matter how the writer intended it. :) Keep doing what you’re doing! You are a blessing!

    • Good point Shannon. I feel that whatever anyone wants to call it, isn’t grace really and truly defined by our lives and what we do with our lives? And even as we learn to walk and live by grace, our actions most likely will be misunderstood anyway. I know that I’m attempting to live from grace as I best understand.

    • For any writer to say we’re hypergrace is almost like a confirmation from God. I don’t know how it’ll play out but I think someone already mentioned the Lord will take care of this. I can’t imagine it being through winning an argument but the Lord will do something so people know we’re His. That way he gets the glory.

      • Also I’ve been thinking about different denominations and how I used to be worried about that a long time ago until I heard one preacher mention “there are many blood bought (insert denomination here) too. I won’t mention which one he said. The Lord prayed we would be one. I don’t think we’re going to end up starting that one denomination when His prayer comes to pass :). I wonder whether those that would label us know know the Greek word there in Romans 5:20. No matter what we’re called though I’m going to enjoy hypergrace as this scripture states. And in Acts it says “great grace was upon them all”. I’ll take all I can get as I’m sure many here feel also.

  31. Paul, I just wanted to send you a quick note of encouragement. I don’t post often, but I do read just about all your posts. God has been revealing the truth of his grace to me for about the last 2-3 years. Some of it has been direct revelation from him and much of it has been through books and resources such as E2R. Your book and your website have played a VITAL role in the joy and freedom that I have found in Christ and I appreciate everything thing you have done to preach and teach the good news of the gospel. You have touched my life tremendously and I am sure there are hundreds of others out there who feel the same way. I wish you the very best and will enjoy watching as this ministry touches more and more lives around the world. Bless you brother!

  32. How about Grace Resort? Relaxing and resting in the Finished Work!

  33. Dr. Michael Brown writes in his article “Hyper-Grace Horror Stories: “3) Hyper-grace teachers commonly claim that the words of Jesus no longer apply to us. Instead, they argue, Jesus’ teaching was for the Jews under the Law before the new covenant was inaugurated, whereas Paul brought the message of grace. If this false dichotomy doesn’t raise a red flag of warning, nothing will. Simply stated, any teaching that minimizes (or even ignores) the teachings of Jesus should be rejected.”
    I am still new learning about the message of grace but this statement scares me.

    • Exactly. You’re meant to be scared, because it’s fear of being deceived that is promoted continuously within this kind of teaching. I find what you quoted Brown saying regarding what “hyper-grace teachers” commonly claim is a blanket statement that doesn’t properly represent what grace/gospel teachers actually teach. At least as far as I’ve read from them. He is making it sound like those that preach grace say we are to disregard all of Jesus’ teachings. Rubbish. I have instead learned that there’s a difference in what Jesus said to those who were under the law and were self-righteous, compared to what He said to sinners who knew their need of Him, and I never got taught that by the fear-promoting teachings that kept me in bondage to their message of self effort.

      • That’s it Kirsty. If we grace teachers ignored what Jesus said, we’d be ignoring the very grace he came to reveal. “Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ”! I have written elsewhere on the ways Jesus revealed grace and for those new to all this, I recommend reading that post. The gospel of grace is really the gospel of Jesus.

        Those who are uninformed about covenants do not realize that Jesus lived under the old covenant AND ushered in the new covenant. There’s a straddling of covenants either side of the cross. This is why it is dangerous to do everything Jesus said as some of what he said was intended for those living under law. The genius of Jesus is that he could speak to the crowds and dispense law to the law-lovers and grace to the hurting at the same time.

    • Don’t let another scare you Renate. I too am new. (last May) and I was very protective of my new found Truth when I discovered it. Hold onto what you have received. Keep listening to Grace teachers, and believe it’s true. My friend told me she just could hardly believe it was 1- this easy and 2- God is THAT good. Well my friend, believe it. Lord knows we are simple (He calls us sheep) and we couldn’t figure out something too difficult with so many rules. So, God’s plan is suppose to be simple, a child can understand. If you would like to talk further, feel free to email me. I’d be happy to encourage you in any way I can. gdsienia@yahoo.com. Blessings and Peace to you.

  34. It doesn’t much matter what we want to call it. What will history call it? Probably a movement, just as you indicated in this piece. It’s a movement of people that believe certain things, but it’s more importantly a movement of God that is changing the hearts of His people and the future of the church. All past movements have done just that, and so will this one. Thanks for your contribution. It’s thoughtful and powerful.

  35. Carrie Wood says:

    Please, no more labels. As soon as they get hung around my neck I tear them off, except the one which names Jesus. Remember Christ is not divided, and the gospel is not about clever words but the cross.
    I was going to say more but I’m not as clever or eloquent as all you brilliant posters, but thank you for such an interesting discussion. And Paul, thank you many times over for your generosity of time and effort in publishing.

  36. I have to process this to answer your question about how would I feel if someone said I believe in “hyper-grace.” The thing I keep coming back to because of this conversation is that as I understand it Martin Luther was excommunicated for believing in “salvation by grace through faith.” So the stakes can be high.

    I can see the concern that people would abuse this teaching, as you point out they did in Paul’s day. Somewhere I believe you have written about us living in both the spiritual and physical world. Spiritually I am the righteousness of Christ in God. In this world, there are consequences to my behavior and I need to live out the gospel the best I can by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

  37. Persecution is around the world in different form and shape! In the Philippines, we are not exempted. Our City pastoral movement is the only group in MetroManila that weekly celebrates Jesus & His Finished Work. Because of this we are branded that we are engrossed with “grace teaching” and this implies that we are “hyper grace”. Paul, we are very thankful to God & to you for the Gospel In Ten Words which has been circulating here in spite of this label put on us. Many of our fellows want your book to be translated in Tagalog and this is why we plan to publish this. Of course with your permission through Pastor Paul Mata. I am proud of you, Paul for your humility and I suggest that you continue spreading Christ & His Work until those who are not in our “camp” will be enlightened and they will be with us soon, after all Jesus said that He has sheep which is not iin the fold yet. Stay blessed, Paul!

    • Thanks Edison, I am so encouraged when I hear what God is doing with this message in the Philippines. I understand Filipino’s to be a naturally joyful people. How you guys must explode with extra joy once you get the revelation of grace, I cannot imagine! But I’m sure it’s good.

    • Hey Edison! We are in another Island of the Philippines. We are in Davao City we are also seeing Gods grace spread here. We also are having grace confrences with pastors. So many testamonies cannot count them all. Im so excited about this persucution! It will increase this Gospel of grace. We are about to put together a crusade to reach around 700 to 1000 people for Christ. Also we will have a grace confrence with pastors.

      Here is a word for everybody! You remember in the book of Acts Paul in the Bible put wood in the fire then a snake bite him. Then he shook it off into the fire.The same fire that caused this snake to bite him was the same fire that burned up the snake. When we get bite preaching grace. What do we do? we just preach more grace. I can say this! This past week when Dr. Brown attacked the pure grace message. I have grown more in grace in a week than I did in six months. Did anybody else experince that as well? I belive this attack will increase and cause this gospel of grace to exploid.

      • Presley and Edison! So good to hear whats happening in the Philippines! Special country, special people! Also really don’t like labels, just causes more division. Reality is we all have a propensity to “label” anything and anyone, good or bad, happened in the early church as well!

  38. I remember years ago leaving this one “denomination” I won’t say which. And this was before caller I.D. but was constantly harrased and being begged to come back because I had “Fallen from Grace” which they also interpreted as loosing my salvation. But several times they commented and said with a snear “you’re one of those “Gracers” I guess they meant it as an insult, but I appreciated their observation. They accused me of falling from grace then called me a Gracer. Still scratch my head over that one.

  39. phoenixsandy says:

    There is no such thing as hyper-grace. That is a redundancy. Grace, by it’s own definition is much bigger than just “hyper!”

  40. “Hyper-grace” suggests we are pushing for something greater than God. Does anyone see the irony in that? What lengths we humans go through to limit God!

  41. I just read the follow up article….and it seems to me that Dr Brown and others admit there are testimonies of people getting free with what Grace really means, however there are many abusing it too. That sounds just like the governments sort of reasoning / moving toward more and more “regulating of the people”. Because some people abuse or misuse something, then we need more laws. For example, the cold medicine Sudafed. It brought more relief to those suffering that the drug addicts. Yet, the government stepped in and banned it! Wha?? So the many are punished for the few?? That doesn’t seem right. So some abuse Grace. Yeah, and plenty abuse Christianity too. Do we ban the bible or limit those “abusers” and go and take their bibles away. See how silly this gets? Seems we are called to not “judge before the time”. How do you know that a grace “abuser” isn’t just passing thru a stage and will find balance? Who are you to regulate God’s word?
    I am one of the set free, after 30 yrs of religion. I am SO thankful for those who taught the True Gospel and trusted me into the hands of the Father. What I had before was def NOT good news. I was embarrassed to share the religion I’d been taught and all the rules. So I kept quiet. Now, you can’t shut me up. I have shared with multiple young people and 4 in the last 6 months professed belief in Christ. This Grace movement is exciting and I am thrilled to be a part. Thanks Paul, keep standing for Freedom.

  42. I think John Newton got it right:

    Amazing Grace.

    The not-so-often-sung verses:

    T’was Grace that taught…
    my heart to fear.
    And Grace, my fears relieved.
    How precious did that Grace appear…
    the hour I first believed.

    Through many dangers, toils and snares…
    we have already come.
    T’was Grace that brought us safe thus far…
    and Grace will lead us home.

    The Lord has promised good to me…
    His word my hope secures.
    He will my shield and portion be…
    as long as life endures.

    Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
    And mortal life shall cease,
    I shall possess within the veil,
    A life of joy and peace.

    • I love Amazing Grace – it is the king of hymns! Yet there is one line in it that doesn’t fully capture how I feel about grace:

      “How precious did that Grace appear the hour I first believed.”

      Grace was precious the first hour but has actually become more precious over time. God’s grace is far more precious to me now than ever before. I imagine it will become ever more precious still as I further explore the limitless boundaries of his love for me.

      • Agreed =o).

      • Let me add to my last comment: Grace that is precious can denote worth and/or fagility; for those new in Christ, Grace may be worth a lot to them but they don’t yet understand the confidence they can have in Grace; those who learn the depths of God’s Grace understand its great worth and stability and can rest secure therein.

      • Grace if it was not precious in th first instance, you may not have grown this big that many in Bangalore also get a taste of what you got. Jesus is always precious, always reveals new love He has for us.

      • picky,picky

      • played on the bagpipes it makes me cry.

    • Yes JGIG I think it says it all, and it always makes me tear up as it was sung at my mum and dad’s funerals. Its great to read the unsung verses. Will make sure we sing them at our house church next Thursday. I always want to holler when we sing “when we’ve been there 10,000 years! Thank you.

  43. Hyper-Grace tends to have a negative connotation to those who don’t understand what hyper means nor do they have understanding that this “so called” hyper grace gospel is in fact, what Paul preached and what he was obviously persecuted for.

  44. I think the term HyperGrace describing us grace people is at first glance a derogatory term. It congers up thoughts that we are “off”. Anyone coming from a Law background and first hearing about (first taking notice) of the Grace message, they are offended because we have spoken against the ten commandments. Until we Grace folks get some of our theology correct and in sink with each other, we do sound like we are “off,” The notion that God does not see our sins anymore, is hard to believe, even for me, a “Grace er.” What about in Revelation when he judges the sinner? He has to see the sin, right? I like what Steve Hackman said “he no longer sees us as sinners!” not that He doesn’t see our sins, that makes more sense. How about when we Gracers talk about “the curse has been reversed”. Well, yea, but why are we still dying if we are now like Adam was before the fall? So what does the curse has been reversed really mean? How about when we tell them that Protection and Health were provided for us at the cross and we still get sick and “things” still happen to us? How about that Joseph Prince preaches that tithing is still a new testament thing to do and so many Grace preachers say that it is an OldTestament Law? I believe in the Grace of God, “Jesus” His son, but I have too many questions that need to be answered before I even think about becoming an expert on Grace and come across as being “hyper”. We all need to get on the same page. I thank the Lord for you, Paul Ellis, Andrew Farley and others that are helping me sort this out.

  45. Paul, have you considered visiting us here in the Philippines that you may witness personally how your book impacted us here, much more when Tagalog translation reaches our provinces. I just thought of this, maybe what is happening in this GRACE is just a part of God’s overall plan to show how gracious He is to all people every time the accuser of the brethren maligns the Person of Grace-Jesus!

  46. Charles Indonesia says:

    I always like the term “Grace Revolution” by Joseph Prince.

  47. I’m a composition teacher and one of the things I teach my students is argument. One type of argument is an argument of definition. The topic of same-sex marriage is one of definition. There are those who want to define marriage as a relationship existing between a man and a woman, and there are those who want to modify that definition. Anyways, the discussion we’ve been having is really one of definition. How do we define the grace of the gospel?

    I don’t like the idea of adopting this term “hyper-grace” because it really is changing the game. No longer does the argument become one of definition, but now we are modifying grace as it exists. Grace isn’t just grace, it’s hyper-grace. It’s almost like we’re saying, “Okay, you can have the word grace and the definition you want to apply to it. We’ll concede and pick a new word, hyper-grace, and apply our definition to that.”

    I’m not sure if I made a bit of sense there :)

    I like the idea of calling it a “grace awakening.”

  48. Dr. Brown’s new article is simply a case of “Poisoning the Well” and overlooks the number of people who’s lives have been freed from addictions and sins because of the Grace message. Notably, Dr. Brown doesn’t talk about those people.

    My response is here.

  49. Charles Indonesia says:

    Shalom Paul,

    I got discovered by Grace more than a year now. Before I always in fright and fear of God’s rejection. Now I stand secure in His promise and love. Grace has change and promote me higher than before, and there is nothing I do to add it up.

    I encourage you to do and write more Grace. If Dr Brown wants to do all Jesus’ words, his church soon will be an amputational ward (if you sin with your eyes, pluck it out. If you sin with your hands, chop it away). No man under law would dare to do that, no way!
    So, you must have rejected Jesus’ words, unless the word is not meant for you, but for the OC keeper.

    God bless you Paul Ellis.

  50. I kinda like the term “hyper-grace.” That’s because Jesus is hyper when it comes to loving us. (Think about dying for the one you love, aint that hyper?) What do we know? It might be the next reference to us as christians, since the term “christian” is initially used as labelling for the early church.

  51. Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
    we are not there to make any religion, but just to preach JESUS.

  52. I actually think it is indicative of the legalists to place terms on that which is Grace to begin with. In essence, they have changed the meaning of grace to be something other than grace, hence they place adjectives in front of grace for all that believe in Grace only. When we get right down to it, grace is all Jesus and none of us. However, the legalist wants to say it is mostly Jesus but something else must be done to make ourselves presentable to God in order to receive grace.

    Grace is all Jesus. Grace is none of me. If anything is added to grace, then it is not grace to begin with. From the standpoint of the hyper-grace name, I think it really is “extreme” in the true sense because grace is pure. People find it hard to receive grace because it is so black and white. It is not chocolate milk. You can not mix a little “doing right” with the grace of God and say that God loves us because of us doing right some of the time.

    For those that say that people are taking advantage of Grace, then I would say that people that are living under the law have never received Grace in the first place. They have not repented (changed their mind) of their unbelief and trying to keep themselves righteous apart from the Grace of God, Jesus. (Galatians 5:4)

  53. Its easy for all of us to label others. In the effort to define a particular class/group of people, we end up categorizing and in many cases create stereotypes, and introduce ‘distance’ – after all, if you’re part of ‘them’, you’re really not part of ‘us’.

    The same act of labelling a group of people ‘hyper-grace camp’ can be seen by calling another group of people ‘legalistic pharisees’. In reading the many comments of the previous various posts, as objectively as I could I saw both being done.

    Being labelled only affects me if I let it. At the end of the day, if the message of Grace has taught me one thing, is that its really more important what the Father thinks of me – through what Jesus did for me – and my sense of self-worth comes from Him.

    That is not to say that I shouldn’t care at all about what my brothers and sisters in Christ say about my behaviour – as a spiritual family we should all care about each other – but I shouldn’t take harsh things (as) personally, though I know this is difficult to do. We should reprove one another *in love*, but knowing that our Father loves us no matter what really does help take away the cutting edges of sharp tongues and harsh words.

    At the end of the day, the best way I can ‘convey how Grace operates’ is in my behavior in challenging circumstances. And this is why I tend not to weigh in over online debates – because unless you really knew me in person – and the change that Grace has wrought in me – its hard for you to see that.

  54. I’ve always heard it said that you got to get the sin out of the camp. Now there’s to much Grace in the camp. No wonder I was so confused for so many years.

    Love you all please respect my sence of humor.

  55. I AM free in Him and in Him there is no sin. The last thing i want to do is sin, because i can. i am not moved by the hyper grace or greasy grace comments people make for a few reasons..lol The more we say we are not or defend the more it rubs for a fight. Also its true!!!!!!!! when i think about the goodness of our daddy it makes me Hyper on the inside, my wife and i have run around our room at midnight because of the goodies of heaven flowing… Jesus is the demonstration of the hyper love Daddy has for us… the cross was pretty hyper! and about greasy grace… if you look up anointing and the like… most will translate out as oil, grease and painted on…. YES we are anointed and greasy! and because of the greasy grace no stronghold or hindrance can stick on me. But our law abiding friends are like velcro and most stuff sticks to them and they try to work and confess it of with short temporary relief. love you all very much!!! Jesus is everything! God is not mad at us!!

  56. Dear Paul,
    your one book (Gospel in ten words) is good enough, we know that you are preaching the GOOD NEWS. Believe me, I really felt the ‘GOOD NEWS’ as GOOD NEWS after reading your blog and your book. I too was throwing stones on the Grace Preachers before, but when all MY strength drained out by trying to DO things, I found the found and understood GRACE. These people who mix WORK with GRACE also will realize the truth when they dry out. That time they will come to the real LIVING WATERS of GRACE.

  57. Jerry Nendel says:

    Wow. I hadn’t really thought about it that much, but today I was trying to convey to a dear sister in The Lord who knows grace and lives grace, but doesn’t really understand the controversy brewing, and when I used the term hyper-grace there really was the feeling of a stigma. But I believe this is the suffering to be expected. I don’t expect it to get any better. Like the first believers named “Christians” it was meant to demean them but they humbly accepted the name and wore it as a cloak of honor, because it was true.

    I work at a large Christian theater that just showed a play on Jonah. There was a great line in it. Jonah was angry when he saw the people repenting, and a little girl said to her mother “Why is the man of God so sad?”. And the mother answered “Because he is afraid that something he has worked so hard for God is giving away”. So, unfortunately, I believe that persecution is to be expected and responded with love but no compromise.

    And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. (Galatians 5:11 NKJV)

    Jerry Nendel Voice Mail 717-826-6117

  58. I like to say I am a New Covenant believer.Then I just go where the conversation leads. I tell people to start reading about Saul/Paul in Acts 9 and then go through Paul’s epistles starting with Romans and look for God’s Grace and love and see what it says about the words written on stone. Now I say this in different Bible studies I attend not unbelievers or new belivers, people my age that have been in the denominational church 40-60 years. As I have said before I don’t try to make waves just ripples. Let the Bible speak to them just like it did to me when I first embraced Grace.
    I remember an old teaching of Joseph Prince’s when he was preparing a sermon (i think) and God told him–Stop disqualifying my people—. That is really what I try to do although I have dusted off my feet and walked away from a couple of bible studies. I do not have to argue the Gosple the Holy Spirit will take over in His time and place. The Grace message is hitting the United States and you can really see a difference in Joyce Meyers and Creflo Dollar but sometimes an old program will come on with the faith message. I send Paul’s post to some of my friend’s and have passed out 25 of his book’s. We started attending a new church and we have a lunch scheduled with the minister and I have a copy of The Gosple in Ten Words set aside for him. When my husband grabs the check I will hand him the book.
    Please pray that this book speaks to him because this church without a building has about 500 members. I hope when I give it to him he says, ” I already read it and I loved it”

  59. The Greek root word for hyper means “Above”. One dictionary I’m reading also says, “above, over, excess”. Starting to like it!

  60. Jonathan Marsden says:

    My view is very simple… As soon as you start to measure ‘how much?’ You are right back under the law. With that comes bondage and legalism. Jesus’s grace is sufficient for me. Not some measure or degree or hyper grace – just His grace. If others choose to condemn or try to label in an attempt to rubbish me – then bless them. For my part i believe that when Jesus said ‘it is finished’ it really was finished – who am I to second guess my best friend and savior. I’m not going to reduce this by trying to put some limiting measure on it..

  61. Grace super-abounds that it cannot be contained. It is a gift purchased with the best heaven has, yet freely dispensed to us. How can I not embrace it with awe? How can I not value it with my life? I will not even dare measure it. All I need to do is swim in it. Because of Grace, I am free from my insecurities, free from sin, and free to love, free to forgive. Yes, it’s hyper and it’ll only get more hyper with time. Keep up the posts, Paul. You are a blessing to the grace ‘movement’.

  62. Hi Paul,

    I’m quite fine with any prefix [hyper-] that exalts the Name of Jesus and His extreme, unmerited, abounding goodness.

    According to Wikipedia the prefix “hyper” may be defined as: The English prefix hyper- comes from the Greek prefix “ὑπερ-” and means “over” or “beyond”; it has a common origin with the prefix “super-” which comes from Latin.

    I love that JESUS GOES BEYOND ALL EXPECTATIONS (and religion) to super-bless me! Praise God for people like Michael Brown who, in their ignorance, show us the unlimited goodness of God!

    Love, Daniel

  63. My grace is sufficient for you. It does not say my hyper grace is sufficient for you. Grace speaks of Jesus Himself and that is enough. I do not need hyper Jesus.

  64. Phillip Waite says:

    Hyper Grace is like a compliment. I think the Holy Spirit might have had something to do with it. After all, our brothers who gave us this tag are still sons of the living God. When I get to heaven, I am going to line them up for a high five. I would imagine I will have the power to do it at the speed of light. I will need that. Thank goodness, as we are empowered to believe, (walk in the spirit) we take less offence and are able to turn the other cheek in love. A gentle kiss from our saviour within us, to our brothers who smite us. Who smite us ever so gently. Our brothers turn their cheek because they believe it is perscriptive, while we turn because it is a work of hyper Grace. Great follow up Paul.

  65. Barry Grecu says:

    Good luck with trying to find a catch phrase to describe God’s grace and those who are promoting it…I have heard it all : “grace camp”, “grace movement”, ad nauseum. Frankly, it sometimes seems like just another way to say, “I’m in the right group because…” Maybe it’s a lot like wanting to belong somewhere, and especially belong to the right or the “in” group. Maybe it’s time to embrace the words of Francis of Asissi, “Preach the gospel and if necessary, use words.” Having been identified with the “grace camp” and the “grace movement” I must say that I am finding a lot more freedom living “outside the camp” than I did “inside”. I think I have found grace. I just don’t call it that.

    • Hi Barry, I agree with you. It’s a lot like saying: “See, I’m in!” or “Look at me I belong to this hyper, ultra, super, extreme or whatever group.”

      However, We should all declare: “I’m in!” and “Grace is in me!” … after all we are already grouped as the body of Christ and we already belong … as the bride of Christ. Amen!

      Also, God’s Grace, however is not indescribable, nor is it unknown nor out of reach nor mysterious nor mystic nor secret, etc. He (God’s Grace) is beautifully revealed and His character amazingly portrayed in God’s Word. His Name is Jesus! Praise God! No label, no camp, no movement nor description can contain Him, yet He lives inside of us. Amen!

      Inside the Grace camp we might be able to preach the Gospel without words, but the great need is outside the camp. Inside and outside the camp we might want to reconsider what Francis of Asissi says ito “Preach the gospel and if necessary, use words.” This quote is misused and is abused a lot (I’m not accusing you of doing this. It just came to my mind as I read you quoting it). Although what he says is commendable it’s like nowadays we use it as an easy way out, an excuse not to openly testify about the goodness of our God. To share the Good News explicitly we need to use words … Jesus did!

      Hyper-sensitivity to what people think (including their labeling of us) may cause a neglect of Rev 12:11 “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.” – because we have Grace!

  66. Thanks to you for love to all brothers or sisters in Christ, its great to read your posts of love and grace, which do not disqualify. Unfortunately there are some that use grace to enjoy hatred, malice and divorce where as Christ has set us free from those nature, replacing with pure love. I wish to see that love operating in our homes and societies for a world depraved of love.

  67. 1) Brown takes issue with Christians labeling Christians “Pharisees” (which I am sure was used as a “descriptive” way to highlight a propensity to hang onto a works-based relationship with God) but then follows suit by in turn labeling a group of Christians as “hyper grace”. Brown excuses his “name calling” by claiming he uses the term “hyper-grace” to be descriptive, not insulting. My response: Mr. Brown, if you really feel like “name calling” is destructive and divisive and needs to stop, then why are you doing it?

    2) Brown claims that hyper grace teachers “often make extreme statements that lead believers to think that they are not responsible for their sins”. My response: Mr. Brown, can you clarify in what way Christians are responsible for their sins? Because I take issue with extreme statements that imply that sins have the power to “unwash” what the blood of Jesus took away once and for ALL, that Adam’s disobedience was greater than Christ’s obedience. That once we turn to Jesus, once we believe on Him, something, namely “sin”, can separate us from God’s love.

    3) Brown claims that hyper grace teachings instruct believers to disregard (at the worst) or minimize (at the best) the words of Jesus. My response: Mr. Brown rightly dividing the Word of God leads us to interpret what Jesus said in the same way that Paul did. Paul did not preach a “different gospel” than Jesus; he just understood and preached the changing power of the cross!

    • Bec, this is your Dad you need to go to bed. Posting this at 12:46 am :)

      ps You write beautifully, Love Dad

      • Hahahaha! Nice one Paul. And yes, Bec, you do write beautifully. Now to bed young lady! ;)

      • Thanks Dad! Haha, No worries, I wasn’t up posting in the middle of the night…must be a time change for Florida :) Nice to see you are following this AWESOME blog I told you about ;) Really looking forward to reading the next post in the Eternal Security Series (hint hint!)

  68. I read the previous posts and all the comments. I wanted to comment but couldn’t find the right words,Paul. But you’ve said it in this post. How do I feel about the term Hyper-grace? At first glance it’s derogatory. It’s meant to be. Even though a second look reveals that it’s actually a good term (because that’s exactly what the grace of God is…it’s hyper-OTT! ) Labels can be off putting, but like it or not we will be labeled. For that reason amazing grace may be more palatable to everyone. This labeling is just persecution. I found this out when my eyes were opened to the true gospel after 25+years of mixture. It was as if I was born again -again!! I thought the message would be welcome at church. But no, there was silent disaproval,snide comments, hidden rebukes in sermons, and slighting all those ‘grace’ people. I even got a label…Grace Queen. I’m more than happy to wear that title. I love God more than ever and I want everyone to have that same excitement,but you either ‘see’ it or you don’t. Thank God for your life Paul. I for one truly appreciate you. I read everything you write and engage with the word…in my head at least lol.

  69. Marianne Cantey says:

    I prefer the term “grace embracers” instead of grace camp or grace movement. There are different degrees of embrace/hugs; but when you receive a bear-hug, you know you’ve been embraced

  70. Totally agree! Thank you for bringing the discussion back to reality. The reality is Christ. The entire debate with Dr. Brown was/is really just a distraction from what is real. Arguing over what God sees is simply not important, unless it is said that because God no longer sees our sin, everyone goes to heaven. No one here is claiming this. As you stated so clearly in The Gospel in Ten Words; “There are two ways to get this wrong: One, tell people that they must do something before God will forgive them-that’s called law and it’s a grace killer. Or two, tell sinners that because they are forgiven they are also saved-that’s called universalism and it’s a faith killer. Sadly, some have come racing out of one error only to dive headlong into another. Let’s be clear, FORGIVENESS DOES NOT EQUAL SALVATION (emphasis added). Although Christ carried the sins of the world on the cross, not everyone is saved.”

  71. The term hyper-grace doesn’t bother me…they can call it what ever they like…grace is GOOD NEWS! If they can’t see that then only the Holy Spirit can show them. No worries, though, Paul said that he was persecuted and the same thing is still going on today by those who don’t understand grace! Grace and Peace to all!

  72. I’d like to quickly share how I got involved in this grace… well, lets just say “thing” for now. After studying and teaching the word for a while, I was pretty confused (due to a mixture of grace and law I would come to find out). One night I happened upon a You Tube video from Revival Or Riots ministries. I was blown away by what I heard. It did not sound like the typical charismatic/prophetic messages I was accustomed to. The lines were so clear about where one covenant ended and the other began.

    Then, within 2 days, I heard about Joseph Prince from 3 different sources! Little did I realize it, but this was the beginning of something life changing. I never set out to be part of a grace movement, but boy did grace ever move me. I agree that to preach Jesus is to preach grace. However, in 2 Corinthians, Paul warns about receiving “another Jesus”. So I feel the emphasis on how Jesus embodies Grace and Truth is important.

    My life has been changed and although I would not choose a label, I am happy to bear whatever label might come along with this. We must not let the fear of deception lead us to try and control this grace thing, which in my opinion is what Dr. Brown’s teaching will do.

  73. I like the label AMAZING GRACE believer.

  74. Patrick Hng says:

    God always loves what he sees when he looks at his people???
    Matthew 3:17 and suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”. We are accepted in the Beloved because of the finished work of Jesus on the cross (Eph 1:6). When God looks at us today, He sees Jesus in us and all over us as we are in the Beloved. And God will surely loves what He sees when he looks at His people!!! In fact we will hear Him says “This is my beloved son/daughter; in whom I am well pleased”.

    His grace is sufficient for me. So, no hyper-grace; grace will do!

  75. Personally, I do not care what others call me. I’m not one for titles and labels much. Jesus calls me righteous, justified, sanctified, and redeemed. That’s good enough for me.

    I can’t help but wonder if Dr. Brown stops loving his wife when she does something that displeases him? Of course not I am guessing. God may not approve of some of our actions, but that doesn’t mean He stops approving of us. My dad once told me, “Brandon, I need to tell you that you do not ever have to earn my approval. I approve of you and love you because you are my son, and nothing you can ever do will ever change that. I may not always agree with some of your choices, but your identity as my son will never change.” I can’t help but think this is a picture of my position with and identity in Christ. He may discipline me because He loves me, but He will never turn His back on me. I realize we have the right to reject Him and turn our backs on Him, but that is unbelief and rejection of the Gospel, and it has nothing to do with stumbling from time to time. Spouses are not married and divorced from day to day based on their performance, and we are not in one day and out the next, and in again when we make it right.

  76. Sorry, I almost forgot, thank you Paul for your faithfulness to the Gospel message.

  77. So far nobody has commented on what I thought was a pretty cool Star Trek picture (at the top of this post). What – no Trekkies/Trekkers here? I admit, my sense of humor is as warped as a warp drive but wasn’t it even slightly funny? I was giggling like Spock doesn’t when I made it. Words like hyper naturally make me think of star ships.

  78. IM A TREKKIE,IM A TREKKIE. MOVE,MOVE I CAN DO ZHIS, I can do zhis. [ CHEKOV] the latest star trek movie. not the newest! I always liked scotty i need warp drive in 3 min or were all dead……………….I remember the first time I heard the grace message, it was like A Wommack said its to good to believe or to good to be true news.It seems to be to simple to grasp,but when you realize that Gods grace is much more powerful, that if you really begin to grasp it you see that nothing can stand against it. and to quote andrew again, when you see its his work that counts you say {GEE I WAS DOING SO GOOD TO.]

  79. Ryan Tingley says:

    If people are saying “so we can just go on sinning and God won’t care?,” then chances are…you are preaching grace correctly. Paul addressed this very reaction seven times throughout his letters. Grace is meant to be overdone. “Well God doesn’t do things unbalanced!” Really, look at the cross for one hard minute and say balanced. Look at the 613 laws of the old testament for one hard minute and say balanced. Okay, now look at grace and put a stipulation on it….

    Be encouraged brother. Grace reveals grace to mankind or else it wouldn’t be grace. I find myself sometimes getting anxious and antsy when people just don’t see it. Only to be reminded that religion once again lurked into my peripheral. God is sovereign %100 of the time. There isn’t a time when our will (which I believe to be an illusion) supersedes Gods sovereignty. I won’t dive too deeply into that. Case and point, deceived people are simply meant to be deceived for the time being. Can I prove that, of course. God is all powerful and can reveal His grace to them at any given moment if He so chooses. God kept Israel blind, God hardened Pharaohs heart. God clearly states that He purposes Evil in ISA 54. God has always desired for there to be “contrast” in this present life. Without the extreme law, suffering, cross, etc we would never be able to understand how EXTREME grace really is.

    grace and peace brother

  80. Charles Indonesia says:

    Hi Paul,
    That was Kirk’s ship, isn’t it? The good ol days…
    Back to hyper grace, i always like “Grace Revolution”, like JP wrote.
    Revolution is radical and changes things.
    Keep preach Grace, don’t ever change. God will never change.

    God bless you

  81. The ultimate story of rags to riches!
    His grace displayed
    in saving the worst men
    Behold, God’s riches
    of grace are a Person (Jesus)
    Christ, the fountain
    abounding in His grace
    Over my foul sin and
    mountains of mistakes
    In pleasure He’s immeasurably gracious
    Now we’re seated with Jesus in the heavenly places.
    ~ Shai Linne

  82. Am learning as i grow that all human attempts at theology – and thus explaining how God is doing His thing – do indeed have something missing. So, in fact, the holiness camp, the grace camp, the reformed camp, the Arminian camp, and the whatever-else camps are all petals on the same beautiful flower with the central, VITAL stem being Jesus. HE is the way: Not grace, not mercy, not love, not holiness, not obedience, not even His infinitely valuable and effective sacrifice on the cross. HE is the Way, HE is The Truth, and HE is The Life. He is the way home. If we could learn, by His Word and by His Spirit to simply live out the life of profoundly powerful Love He has for us – for His glory and for each other – we could stop spreading the cancer (as Paul called it in 2 Timothy 2:14) of fighting over words.

    Surely Scripture is authoritative, and just as surely, He is the Author of His own Words. i do not propose that we just do whatever “floats our own boat.” i DO propose that we understand that His Spirit and methodologies and teaching in our lives are Infinite. They are not just bigger than we are – they are beyond our comprehension. So, instead of creating camps and separation, perhaps we could go ahead and do what Jesus has and is praying that we will do – be one in Him; be united in the power of the Holy Spirit – and be known by the world by our Love for Him and each other.

  83. Hi Paul, I just love reading your post. I am an avid visitor of your E2R. Keep it going!

    The criticism done against grace peeachers today is exactly what was hurled against the Apostle Paul when he wrote to the Galatians saying among others that if he is preaching/teaching the law (circumcision), why is he still persecuted? (Galatians 5:11). In other words, the preaching of the unadulterated message of grace a.k.a the super abounding favor of God, known to them as “hyper-grace” will surely draw fire from those who are keeping (clinging to) the law. I think its as simple as that.

    Aren’t you glad that we are in the same company as the Apostle Paul? I am.
    So let’s just continue sharing this amazing message of grace – the unearned, undeserved and unmerited favor of God.

    Keep it up Paul.

  84. noelgmendoza320 says:

    Hi Paul. I’m an avid vusitor of E2R.

    I just love reading your post. Keep it going.

  85. One of the saints said “Love God and do what you want.” It seems the message that when we are in God then we will know what He wants has been around for a long time!

  86. I love reading this blog as it’s so encouraging and enlightening. Thank you for sharing the true gospel and for pointing me towards Christ’s love and grace. I’m totally blown away by His grace and every new discovery is more food and balm for a soul that was starved and bruised by religion and man’s rules and ideas. Thank you for being a willing vessel of the truth.

    It was fascinating reading all the comments on this post. I was immensely disturbed by the article in Charisma as that’s what I’ve been brainwashed with for about thirty years. It takes a while to come out of it. The fruit in my life shows me though that the grace teachings are true – peace, joy and righteousness. God has truly restored to me the joy of my salvation. Reading what everyone had to say, just confirmed what I knew in my heart – that law-based Christianity is not what God wants for believers.

    I just have one question. How do you teach your children who have been taught religious thinking at Sunday School, the grace of God? Especially when they’re going into their teen years and set in their ideas. I’ve also been looking for a children’s grace devotional and can’t find one. Someone really needs to write one! I’m so tired of cutting out parts of the devotionals that I read to them because there is law inside.

    • That is the $64,000 question! I know there are quite a few parents who follow this blog and we’re all wondering the same thing. I have written a couple of posts on the subject but I’ll be the first to admit they don’t go very deep. (Look up parenting in the subject index.) I guess the main thing is to ensure your kids know unconditional love and that while their behavior may sometimes be unacceptable, they are always 100% loved and accepted no matter what they do.

      • Thank you Paul. Maybe one day I’ll write this devotional if God inspires me. But I suppose how we treat them and our relationship with God is what will stick in their minds much longer than any preaching.

    • Sit down and be open and honest with them about your walk. Tell them about the personal issues that put you down and how the teaching about grace and the real gospel has freed you from the errors of the past. I didn’t need to sit down with my oldest. She was there and aware when I would go into a verbal rant against God because of my depression and the legalistic bondage I was under. Thankfully most of the yuck I learned was not from our church it was from other sources. Our church was just asleep and coasting and I was hungry and seeking ended up going with the wrong teachers for awhile.
      She saw the difference because I got asked “Mommy were you saved before when you were having your problems?” My answer was that I didn’t know about before but I know I am now and that is all that matters.
      I would prayerfully go through your kids bible study, bible story books and glean out anything that is heavy handed against grace but the change in you will be a string help in the matter. I wish there was some good resources out there too.

  87. chrisesters says:

    Hyper-Grace….ummm….that will elevate the Gospel of Grace by leaps and bounds. It will reach other believers who have not heard the unadulterated Gospel! It’s a good thing, Paul! But know, once the “name” is embraced, name-callers will find another one! I share your articles to everyone I know and they are being set free! They have met Jesus through your teachings! Michael Brown? Who is he? ;o)

  88. donavon freeman says:

    I agree wholeheartedly with Makala.It’s not about obedience,works,making ourselves perfect or behaviour.To prove my point,let’s talk about Samson.I will call it “Samson Gone Wild”.
    If you read Judges 16,you will within 15 verses Samson broke a buch of God’s statutes.
    Right after Samson got out of the bed with a prostitute,he found out the Gazites had surrounded him.He simply removed the giant city gates,and quietly walked up hill with them,bars and all.Now who gave him the strength to do such a feat?Why the Spirit did.But why would the Spirit assist a man who had just committed fornication(broken law)?
    But Samson was only getting warmed up.He then in the same chapter went to gentile territory where he should not have been and got with Delilah next.
    If that wasn’t enough he lied constantly about the secret of his strength…Doesn’t God hate liars?
    Yet whenever Samson needed the power of the Spirit it never failed him.Because in the covenant God made with Samson the secret to his strength was in his hair…and until his hair was cut off his behaviour was not under review..read for yourself…Samson killed for personal gain..he lost a bet..didn’t matter..the Spirit fell and he killed a 100 men to cover that bet..
    The new covenant was made between God and his son Jesus Christ and until Jesus is cut off our behaviour is not under review..does that mean I sin like Samson?God forbid…I have a new nature unlike Samson who lived to please the flesh…I’m born again and my race starts at the finish line….so i rest instead of run….

  89. Gilly Stott says:

    Hyper Grace – if anyone wants to accuse me of embracing hyper-grace, all I can say is “Guilty as charged!! Why wouldn’t I embrace hyper grace – I mean, what other kind of grace is there?? Toned-down grace? Limited grace? Conditional grace? If it isn’t HYPER IN THE EXTREME then it isn’t grace and none of us has a hope!

    It’s just that we are so used to everything about His goodness becoming diminished and emasculated by religion, that some find it hard to accept how good He really is – HYPER GOOD!! Its like the word gospel – we are so used to hearing it being called the “Good News” and then limiting the word “good” to securing our place in Heaven because our sins are forgiven. Yes of course that is good but “gospel” is a hyper-word that means much, much more than that. It is the ” ALMOST TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE NEWS” !!!! Woo Hoo!! that lets us enjoy the benefits of eternal life NOW – healing, wholeness, salvation, provision, protection, bold confidence, full, unbroken access to His Presence, full adoption as His darling sons and daughters, complete union with Jesus – and thats just for starters!

    If Grace leaves us with anything short of all Jesus is and has, then I don’t want it because the gospel promises me that I am a joint-heir with Him and one in spirit with Him. Everything He has is mine! And He made it all possible without my permission, my co-operation or my help! That’s pretty hyper!! Hyper grace? Oh yes! Bring it on!!!!

    Thankful Gilly, UK

  90. Christopher says:

    What Dr Brown doesn’t understand is that grace is grace, as God had predestined from the foundations of the world. It’s human fallibility, which tries to put grace into a box, or put some measurement and weight to it. Grace is uncontainable! Legalists put some weight to grace by labelling it as hyper-grace and write about the sins that hyper grace people are committing, but if one shift the weight to the other end of the scale and call it legalism, we ALSO see a very ugly picture of self righteousness, hypocrisy and works. Jesus is not glorified there either. Didn’t Jesus reprimand the people for looking at the speck in his brother’s eye, whilst he has a log in his own eye? Sure He did! Now we can rightly say that legalists are of the one camp and libertines of the other camp. Both camps are trying to remove the specks from one another’s eyes, but they’re unable to do so because they’re blinded by the logs in their own eyes! Whooo!!
    We grace believers are all familiar with legalism, we’ve been there, done that and got the T-shirts, and surely we are grieved by those who flash out the grace card when confronted about their unChristlike behaviour.
    There is nothing we can do about them in their own camps, but pray for them. Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith and He is working in every one of them and us. We, in His Grace, have our shortcomings, but we look up to Jesus. The world is watching us and surely they see all of us, who call ourselves Christians, as a bunch of clowns. Let us not get drawn into the ways of carnal Christians.

    I hope I make sense.

  91. I have just left the page of Charisma News with exasperation. There seems to be an assumption by Dr. Brown’s supporters, if not Dr. Brown himself, that the truth is already settled on the matter and anyone that disagrees with them in “serious error.”

    Honestly, I find Dr. Brown’s patent hyperarminianism to be the “serious error.” He puts himself in the same category as Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones when he says: “So, to repeat, I teach and preach biblical grace as did Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones (although I am not a Calvinist).” But such a statement is, at best, grossly misleading. You can see my exchange with him here.

    I don’t see what he bothered to deal with the substance of my arguments. He claims that he doesn’t have time to respond to me, but apparently he has time to chime in on a whole lot of other comments there.

    I don’t believe that the noteriety or popularity of someone determines the truth of what they are saying. That said, Dr. Brown needs to be put into context lest their be any misunderstanding: He is not as “mainstream” in Christian thought with regard his views on grace as some might be tempted to think. Oh sure, he’ll find support among the Wesleyans, the Holiness and Pentecostals. The Churches of Christ might like a lot of what he says. But Luther, Spurgeon, Nee, Billy Graham, and many others would disagree with his soteriology. I can find Andrew Farley’s book and Steve McVey’s book in LifeWay (a Baptist bookstore). And grant, Michael Brown can get published by Baker and other mainstream Evangelical presses when he talks about the Old Testament and Jewish concerns, but outside of that?

  92. Seriously, i will rather accept the grace of God and live a SEEMINGLY unrighteous life (people call it sin) than live a SEEMINGLY righteous life OUTSIDE of God’s grace. The latter is a form of godliness that totally denies the power of God.

    Debola .O.
    Nigeria

  93. A certain philosopher observed that there are 3 stages when introducing a ‘new’ truth:
    1) it will be opposed
    2) it will be violently opposed
    3) it will be self-evident i.e. “I knew it all along”
    I would estimate that the Grace Movement is somewhere in the 2nd stage.It therefore, has some way to go .before it is firmly established -ONCE AGAIN.
    All Movements or Revivals are started by GOD.in order to re-establish his original intention.for the Church.
    There is nothing ‘new’ in Christianity .God wants a blemish-free, wrinkle-free Bride. He’s ironing out the wrinkles with His’ irons’ – His highly anointed, Preachers of Grace.

    The Grace ‘Movement’ is a temporary vehicle to re-establish Grace as the operational factor -NOT the Law – in our Christian life. It will ALWAYS be opposed and persecuted. That’s a given.
    As Pastor joseph Prince says -:a dog may bark and bark at the moon; but the moon still s-h-i-n-e-s.
    Not all opponents fall into the same category a). There are many who are genuinely upset about the so-called ‘errors. They will eventually find their way out and end up in group number 3)(above).They are true seekers.

    b) Many will never accept the truth.

    c) The rest will fall somewhere in between, and not have the peace and satisfaction which God desires for them.

  94. Yeah I have no problem with “hyper” grace just as I have no problem radical grace or hyper/radical love. I mean, it’s God we’re talking about here. He’s immeasurably more than we could imagine.

  95. john farmer says:

    The main things are the plain things, I was once told. Call it what you wish, Paul said it was part of the gospel that saves us, if we continue it, which gives us the ability to stand in it, and there I shall plant my feet upon that solid Rock.

  96. Paul..your website is great I am highly inspired by your revelation and have started a blog( i think i read in one of your books that this is a good way to rest.. on THE ROCK ) on Gods love with the name ‘puregraceindian’ .. not sure how that name sounds compared with hypergrace!! but agree we should not be dividing ‘ One Christ ‘ -God bless .(google -puregraceindian – u find me)

  97. Dear Paul, so forgive me, this is meant to encourage but I’m a little bit confused by it all really! Are we really to be defined by what movement we belong to in Christendom? Grace, hyper-grace, a little bit of law and grace… I mean if there is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism etc then shouldn’t we just be defining and basing our lives simply on the fact that we, as born again people are only, truly witnessing to the reality of Christ in this World, when we realise that we all drink from the same cup & that we only really understand that it is His life in us that is the foundation of everything that happens in us and through is. Isn’t this the way it’s always been? If we are Christians (IE we have received this new life) then that is surely the only group we belong to …. and that includes Dear Dr Brown (who has a much bigger brain than most of us). Otherwise, how can we really love God and love each other authentically and sincerely with all this division? When I read the opening chapter of 1 John that is vs 1-8 …. there it is, the basis for fellowship… Bless you Paul.
    Jason

  98. I find so much revelation in Luke 15 and the story of the prodigal son. He came back home prepared to be a servant and his first work was to confess his sins but the father ignored him but instead threw a party. I don’t think the father ever thought about what the son had been doing but only that he had decided to return and then receive the grace offered by the father. Does not 1st Cor 13 say we should take no notice of offenses. God would not instruct us to do that if he took notice. God has forgiven and forgotten so why should we try to remind Him. His response is “I don’t know what you are talking about.”

  99. I saw Steve Hill on ” It’s Supernatural.” A television show.I have never heard of Steve Hill..He had a lot to do with the Brownsville revival in Florida.He endorses Michael Brown.It seems he had a vision of an avalanche and related it to false teachings in the church.He has a book out “Spiritual Avalanche”A warning about a teaching that is out that says we can sin all we want,because we are forgiven.Who teaches that?That is not what the Grace message says.What is going on here.Why all this division?He was also healed of cancer.He was on his death bed making plans for his cemetery plots with his wife.He was healed.Man I was not making plans for my DH death.I believed up into last moment.Seems he said he would win 1 million souls.Then he was healed.OM GOSH.I don”t get all this.Guess my husband did not say the magic words.Anyone?

    • I watched it too. Apparently that message is out there but I have no idea who preaches it. For the longest time I’ve even noticed contradictions coming from preachers on television. And usually it happens almost simultaneously. But the best advice I’ve heard a few give is to check it out in the Word. They’ll even say “don’t take my word for it”. We do that and just pray for each other and let God handle it.

  100. Reading this is so freeing! I am 17 and was saved a year and a half ago. Have heard all this stuff on “grace” both good and bad. So now I know, I can go and continue to sleep with as many guys I want and Jesus still loves me and I don’t even have to repent! That is freeing! I can even have sex with some of the older men I know for money, and God will still love me! So freeing to know that I can do all these things that the “religious pharisee” call sin, but God still accepts me! I even occasionally partake in homosexual sex, and knowing that God still loves me and that I don’t have to feel guilty or bad or it cause I am under grace makes me feel so much better about myself! Thank you for clarifying that! Take care!

    • Leigha, you know lying’s a sin right? Rev 21:8 says “all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.” So you had better hope that this gospel of God’s grace, which you have shamelessly mocked, is true, otherwise you are toast.

      And that’s no joke.

      • Leigha, I hate to burst your bubble but when you were 15 and a half you said you were saved. That would mean that Jesus and the Holy Spirit came into your heart. If you have felt guilty until you read this post then they weren’t living through you. The Holy Spirit convicts the sinner and convinces the Christian he has the righteousness of Jesus. God loves you and so does Jesus but God will not let sin into Heaven. Keep up your lifestyle and if you don’t feel free then you really didn’t accept Jesus. Thank God, He is a God of second chances.

      • gotta admit Paul it does sound like a mock,to much in your face.

      • Brother Donavon Freeman used the appropriate scripture in revealing the heart and grace of Jesus to reconcile women with broken backgrounds back to His love (Woman at the well and prostitute to be stoned in the temple). But obviously the works of the saviour were/are the least concerns of the pharisees/religious. However, clearly these women understood Mark 8:36: For what shall it profit a man/person, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Satire/mockery or not, I’m surprised noone took apart her arguments.

        >”Have heard all this stuff on “grace” both good and bad.”

        Nope, you certainly did not experience the hearing of faith. It’s not head knowledge, but a heart revelation and thus spiritual transformation under Grace.

    • Colleen G says:

      You mock the blood of Christ young lady. You are writing hand in hand with the accuser of the brethren.

    • chrisvanrooyen says:

      Hi leigha.
      Yes you are correct you can do all these things. The only question Jesus will be asking you is. Do I know you. So if you can maintain a relationship with him while doing all the above, I can assure you.I have no doubt you will be in heaven , you see it is about relationship not rules.

      • Chris, I know what you are trying to say (“All things are lawful,” 1 Cor 10:23). But I don’t know that I would say it that way as it may be misconstrued as giving permission to sin – something grace never does. Grace brings freedom to choose without ever encouraging us to choose ungodliness (Tit 2:12). Grace says, “Choose life!” – as you know.

    • Liegha, a friend once said to me, to know the book is one thing, to know the author is different,you need to know the author,when the holy spirit takes up residence in you,your nature begins to change, If your looking for a free ticket, you’ve got that anyway, I cant help but think you want a free pass which makes me question your sincerity am I helping out guys ,or should I shut up.

    • i think liegha is probably one of those legalistic people making fun of grace .

  101. chrisvanrooyen says:

    Hi Paul
    I appreciate your concern. My intention is only to let whoever wrote this post reveal more of their nakedness. If they will have the courage to respond. I agree 100% with everything you have said. .

  102. One of the early ‘saints’ said ‘Love God and do what you like’. When we love God, we will not willingly and knowingly do anything that does not please Him. Sleeping around not only is not loving to the others concerned, it is not loving and respectful to ourselves. There is also the verse about not letting our freedom be a stumbling block to others.

  103. Donavon Freeman says:

    Hi leigha….first it sounds like im detecting sarcasm over sincerity…..then you say you learned it from this site,i disagree.
    There are always consequences for anyone sleeping around as much as you are.
    Did Jesus condemn either the woman caught in adultery or the woman that had 5 husbands and now has a live in boyfriend?No.But he’s a Counselor and he talked with them and freed them from the bondage of lust and loneliness.
    Did you see there reaction after Jesus talked with them?They will never be the same and neither will you if you talk to Jesus.A True Man……
    So why would he approve of what you’re doing and not approve of them….just think.about it….

    If what you’re saying concerning Grace is true leigha…that you can sleep around….prostitute yourself for money and enjoy homosexual acts because Grace is sooo forgiving….
    Then when you get married you shouldn’t get mad at your husband for cheating on you as much as he wants after isn’t that the worst thing he could do to you?but your husband will say hey sweetheart why are you so angry you said you would be with me for better or Worse didn’t you?Well isn’t this the worst that could happen?
    You know your reply wouldn’t be “yes i did say that you may continue cheating”. No you would say I know i said that and I forgave you the first time but that doesn’t mean you have to take me or my vows for granted.Here’s the kicker…you would add If you Loved me you wouldn’t do that…see its not about the law that says ur married…you’re concerned about the Love and so is Christ…he’s saying do you really love me leigha?

  104. Brother Paul, Abba’s beloved, I thank God for guiding me to your blog site. I pray that Abba continues to encourage you and sustain you and bless you in every way. As a Jewish person growing up in Long Island, Dr. Brown went through many difficulties in his whole life for the sake of Christ. His passion for Christ is truly amazing and he vehemently defends the name of Jesus against His own Jewish brethren. ( I used to go to his church and have listened to just about all his debates with rabbis on the messiahship of Jesus). I pray that when the time comes, Abba will lift up the veil off of his eyes so that with the same kind of zeal and passion, if not greater, he can defend the true gospel of Grace. Bless you Paul, Abba’s beloved.

  105. Grace preachers often neglect the ordained process by which we enter into grace, a process that includes exertion and complete failure while feeling the full force of the law, as well as a deep revelation of our sinfulness and lack without Christ. We cannot skip that step directly into grace.

    Holiness preachers often neglect to preach purely the means by which we attain power, the utter inability we inherently have to do the smallest holy thing, and the path of failure unto trusting completely in God alone for life.

    True grace doesn’t lower the standard of holiness, it raises it. We can’t ‘try’ to do the NT commands, and if you are preaching a “get as close as you can,” that is not enough. The Pharisees misinterpreted what the law really asked of them because the demand, the holiness, is a state of the heart, not the outward actions at all. Christ simply did not say “just try to be perfect.”

    The truth is, holy-demanders are asking us to do something we cannot do and sloppy-gracers are telling us we don’t have to achieve holiness.

    The solution is not Jesus helping us, it’s Jesus living his life through us. If our holiness is not a supernatural miracle we could never produce, then it’s not real! And this miracle happens when we maintain faith in God’s ability.

    Neither sloppy-gracers nor holy-demanders show us the complete path of partaking in the new life we find in a complete union with Christ.

    • hi dizerner, my way of looking at it is,since we are completely spiritually bankrupt,the only ID we have is in him………..pick this day LIFE or death……i am the way the truth and the LIFE.and since even the faith comes from god,it becomes really defining.

      • We don’t learn just how bankrupt we are, until we try to “cash” our spiritual checks. No matter how bad you might think you know you are, if it’s not 100% bankrupt, you’ve got to learn that I think, because the Spirit does not bless flesh.

        Still, I think God requires something of us. God has given to us life and breath and all things, and to each man a measure of faith. But I wouldn’t be a Calvinist because of that. What God asks us to do, we *can* do… so why worry. Abraham believed God and I do think it’s something we *have* to do, but more importantly, something we *can* do. I don’t think God does the believing for us, such that we don’t have to, get out of our spiritual beds in the morning, so to speak. We all can put our name in there… ____ believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

        Thanks for your comment.

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