There is no grace camp
I want to thank those of you who took the time to comment on my Michael Brown post over the weekend. That post evidently resonated with many. Within 48 hours of publication it had attracted 250 comments. To put that in perspective, that’s almost as many comments as the original CharismaNews article got in a week.
If you missed the hubbub, Michael Brown wrote an opinion piece confronting what he calls the error of hyper-grace, namely, that the notion that God sees us as holy and righteous. Michael disagrees. “God sees our sin,” says Michael. “Consequently, we need to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates.”
I took issue with this because it suggests that God relates to us on the basis of our behavior and that we have to clean ourselves up before God will accept us. To be fair, Michael never said this, but his message nonetheless amounts to putting a price-tag on God’s love and acceptance.
Where the Bible puts exclamation marks – “God loves you!” – Michael put question marks: “Really? Always? 24-7? God always loves what he sees when he looks at his people?”
Anyway, what followed was a stimulating discussion from people like you. I have now had a chance to read through all the comments several times and I have learned a lot. As I keep saying, E2R readers are a smart bunch! The wisdom some of you have amazes me. I am truly blessed to receive from you.
I also want to thank those of you who encouraged me on my Facebook page on Sunday. After reading one particularly nasty and personal comment (don’t look for it, you won’t find it), my countenance dropped. I get called names all the time and normally it doesn’t bother me. But on Sunday it did and I was gloomy for 10 minutes. Some of you picked up on that and you sought to lift my chin.
Thank you. You’re beautiful.
Jesus Camp
On Monday morning and with a clear head I sat down to distill some of the lessons I learned over the weekend. I’m not yet prepared to share those lessons except for one, and here it is:
As my friend Steve Hackman pointed out in his own response to Michael Brown, the “grace camp” label is horrible. When I went back and reread my article that phrase was the one thing I just had to change. (In the revised post I now refer to the grace movement. I know, it’s hardly an improvement. Got any better ideas?)
Why do I dislike “grace camp”? Because there is no grace camp. There’s just Jesus and we’re all one in Christ. If you trust in Jesus, you’re in the Jesus Camp and it’s the only camp.
Grace is meant to be inclusive. All are welcome in the House of Grace because Jesus died for all of us. The moment we allow ourselves to be defined as a special camp, we start swinging towards an unChristlike exclusivity, like we’re a country club or something.
Manmade religion draws lines between Us and Them but the grace of God tears down dividing walls. I know we’re not all going to see eye to eye, but I don’t want to contribute to a culture that perpetuates fracture lines within the body of Christ. If you see me talking about grace camps again, please remind me of Galatians 3:28.
What about hyper-grace?
Michael never called us a grace camp – that was my own stupid fault – but he does describe us with the label “hyper-grace.” What do you think about this? Personally, I’m in two minds. I think any label is demeaning. The moment we label people we diminish them, we reduce them to caricatures.
“You’re in the hyper-grace camp? So you’re one of those who says we can sin freely and God will still love us. I read about you turkeys on Charisma.”
Yeah, that’s real helpful. I am already paying the price for this cartoon-like rendition of the grace message in the form of time-wasting comments from misguided folks who think we advocate sin.
[Sidebar: You may be aware that this morning CharismaNews published a second piece from Michael. In this article he worries that the message of grace which we preach is unbalanced, as evidenced by the sinful fruit of those who have abused it. Michael seems to think that the abuse of the gospel Jesus revealed and Paul preached is a new thing. I have just one word to say in response to that: Corinthians.]
On the other hand, we may find ourselves stuck with the label hyper-grace much like the believers of Antioch were stuck with the label “Christian.” If that is the case – if you are about to be permanently branded by others as “hyper-grace” – how do you feel about that? Are you happy about it? Do you find it objectionable? Are you cool with it?
To get a conversation started, here are some thoughts from those who commented under the last post:
- Titus 2:11-12 says grace is a person called Jesus. Thus hyper-grace maybe also called hyper-Jesus. Does this mean there is such thing as “too much Jesus”? Or such a thing as “relying on Jesus too much”? … Hyper (also) means “abounds,” so I guess the name is appropriate because the Scripture says, “Grace super-abounds!” ~Joseph Librero
- The whole concept of “hyper-grace” being a bad thing is silly! The lengths to which God chose to go in Grace for us (to the death) is pretty “hyper,” is it not?! ~JGIG
- Wasn’t Paul accused of preaching hyper-grace? (see Romans 3:8, 5:20-6:2) ~John Long
- I am dead to sin. I have a righteousness conscience. I feel free. Free from sin. That’s hyper-grace. Thank you Jesus. ~ Phillip Waite
So far the vibe seems to be generally positive. But what do you think of this term hyper-grace?
Is it something to embrace, resist, or accept? Does it hinder the gospel by suggesting we’re an exclusive camp within the Body of Christ? Or does it promote the gospel by accurately conveying the way grace operates – energetically and actively? I’d love to hear your thoughts.
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I thank God for you every day Paul. Your website has changed my life to be so much more richer and abundant in receiving what Christ already did for me and all humanity. I agree with you “there is no grace camp” there is just JESUS and HIS amazing love for His creation. There are really not words to describe how awesome it is truly it!
Susy
So good there is no “grace camp”. Don’t worry bro. we know what you meant! If people can see that Grace is a Person. “Jesus”. Eyes would be opened!
Since the term “hyper-grace” is not in the Bible I don’t care for it. The Bible just calls it simply grace. When folks use the term hyper-grace it is a tip-off they don’t fully understand the Gospel. I would leave it at that. Some would rather believe a religious Gospel than the real deal.
Trying to see how any kind of grace would work on believers who willfully sin. Sinning while covered in grace? Maybe why everyone is so hyped up on the topic. So much Repentance is lacking in so many camps…,
Paul Ellis, your posts and teachings have been such a blessing to us, My family and I agree with you on the subject of Grace. Keep your chin up, we are praying for you and your ministry, Since you asked, instead of ‘hyper-grace’, how about “Super-abounding Grace”.. the world has its super-heroes, we have ‘Super-abounding Grace’!!
How about The Gospel of Grace that Jesus revealed to Paul
I kind of like hyper-grace because when I first had my eyes opened to grace I quickly found there were different uses of the word depending on denomination or author. But it is polarizing and maybe we should just stick to grace while explaining what we mean when we use it. Love the article.
I wonder why people always have to point out the few bad examples when they talk about grace. I could point out truck loads of bad examples of works-worry-trying to earn God’s acceptance people. Christians sin ONLY the grace aware folks seem to get that, aren’t afraid of it, then forgive and move on.
I don’t like labels but the world does so we get one. I have to correct people’s perception of me as a Christian all the time as they immediately think I’m religious, following rules, laws, liturgy, rituals and the like. I usually say something like I love Jesus and will never be the old Jan again to get the conversation started. I don’t like hyper-grace at all. Hyper has a derogatory overtone here like over the top. Balanced and respectful Christians here say we’re over the top because they don’t approve of our freedom either in worship or victorious living, expecting our prayers to be answered, present day miracles etc. If we must have a label then I would prefer Jesuits but that’s already taken! I think for the purpose of being prepared to say what we stand for we need to describe ourselves somehow so how about the good old “amazing grace” camp? I will give it some more thought. Thanks Paul, you have encouraged our little group more than you know.
Two points about “Hyper-Grace”, I’ve always thought, and said from the pulpit, that the Gospel is ridiculous. God loves us an unreasonable amount. What He did was unbalanced. I embrace the ridiculousness of grace.
Second, in high school someone tagged me with a demeaning nickname. I got my friends to start using it and soon all sting was taken out of the term and all the fun was taken from my potential tormentors. I think hyper-grace is a great name.
I think I’ll make t-shirts printed with I’m a hyper-graver!
Hi Paul, the way i see it is that there tends to be extremes with most movements until the pendulum returns to a place of balance. The Pentecostal movement had it’s own extremes mostly from the issue of tongues. It also tends to be the followers who take the teaching of leaders to an extreme.
When something new surfaces that we don’t understand, it can make us feel insecure. Our natural reaction is to try and control and strangle it before it can become established.
Thankfully God will make sure this will not happen with grace. The cork has been taken out of the bottle and it’s not going back in.
I suppose you are now getting a taste of what the apostle Paul had to live with all his life from the Judaizers. Lol!
To me it is not hyper-grace, but rather a long neglected truth in the church. When Grace is put into a real life scenario – that is, how does this grace message look in practical living, I can’t help but comment. I’m an old Christian, both in human years and in terms of my life journey with Christ. I’ve loved Jesus and wanted sincerely to be all that He wanted me to be since I was 12. After many years on the journey where I performed as a solid Christian (or so I thought) I was in church when the doors were open, I did all of the praying, teaching, Bible Study, serving others, one would expect of an active, zealous Christian. I even went to the mission field and served in a very remote area. But notice which pronoun is used most….. I …..but then I fell, I made some really stupid choices, sin choices. About a year after my sin, (not just wrong choices) I sincerely thought I was lost and totally rejected by God. I was miserable and heartbroken at what I had done. It was like all of my years trying to be all that God wanted me to be was lost. And then God led me to a church where, in a home group, I began to learn about God’s grace. I began to realize in a very practical way that as the church in Galatia I had been trying to perform my way into spiritual maturity. Sure I knew I was saved by Grace, but I had no concept of then being made righteous by His grace. It was such an eye opener that as I spent time in prayer and seeking truth for myself out of this new teaching (not really new, but certainly new in the sense of self application) I began to know that all of my sins were under His blood and that when Jesus died it was for all of my sins as a human, past, spent and future – His blood had covered the lot. Does that mean I have a license now to sin without worry, as Paul said by no means. I want to live a life pleasing to him even more because I now walk in that love that paid the ultimate price. There is now, no condemnation to those who walk in Christ Jesus. It is not about my performance it is about His glory and honor and the love He has shown me. Grace alone can bring me to the feet of my Savior, not my performance, no matter how hard I try or how sincere I am. Thank you Paul for providing a web influence like this – I have no doubt it can and will touch many lives.
Halleluia Alicia, very similar to my experience but when I returned feeling like the prodigal only worse my old church sent me packing! Grace came by going heartbroken to Jesus and receiving directly from him and then he gave me people who really loved me, grace people. Thanks for sharing. Jesus is awesome 🙂
Wonderful post!
I don’t like a label either, as John Huckle as shared. But a wee while ago I told God that I’d follow Him anywhere, even if it meant suffering reproach (such was my fervent seriousness, lol), and the Holy Spirit gently said, “and ignominy?” which sent me scurrying to my dictionary…
Jesus suffered ignominy and reproach because of His message, and that from the religious, self-righteous of the day. Although I keep it squarely in mind that *I* too became self-righteous and religious for a time, I do understand that to preach extravagant grace as God intends me to, I will be slandered. And I am actually happy about it, because it lines me right up with Jesus: “Happy are ye whenever they may reproach you, and may persecute, and may say any evil thing against you falsely for my sake.” Matt 5:11 YLT
I’m not concerned with name calling. Careful study of the Scripture will reveal the only persecution Jesus suffered (prior to the garden) was name calling. I believe it does not matter one bit, because people will be more affect by our actions than what we are called.
How about God’s pure, limitless, infinite grace!
ya, we know your kind paul,my mother used to have a name for your kind,lets just say it had to do with stirring manure. hang in there Bro.
to make my view simple
1. you get saved
2.so now your in the family
3. then you begin, through different things that begin to happen, how helpless you really are, and that nothing lasts but the grace of God
4. so in the grace you begin to see your freedom.
because your foundation is the rock.
5 and your head begins to clear,and a lot of the fear etc begins to fade.
forget the numbers
anyway, your purpose, your gift, your talent,etc becomes clear so with all the bs gone you begin to function the way God intended you to function.
last thing,god doesnt want his children to to be brats,so he begins to train and disipline us.to be like big brother which is by grace.you dont get kicked out of the family,you my not get as far as he wanted you to, but you dont go to hell. I am beginning to fathom the depth and height of Gods grace and Love,and man I dont see the bottom. were does it end? I dont know.
PS; sorry didnt mean to stir more up.
How about calling it God’s measureless, limitless, and infinite grace! I feel sorry for those who limit and belittle God’s grace. If you aren’t preaching grace, you aren’t preaching the gospel.
its Grace…superabounding, radical and amazing!
if we wanted to get biblically technichal… we could call ourselves “those who have entered through the narrow gate”… and im laughing because, when i read it, i hear it in gandalf’s voice! 🙂
1. To say that because you sin and it is wrong that God doesn’t love you, isn’t what Dr. Brown advocates does he? Does he say that in his articles?
God loves you whether or not you go to heaven or hell. He loves all. So “what’s love got to do with it?” It seems to be irrelevant in the topic.
2. Hasn’t he said he doesn’t come against people just teachings. You have made it about us vs. them. Where you may be a grace teacher that has adopted some bad teaching. But not necessarily throwing you out with the teachings. I think from all that I have heard and I have looked at both sides, he has continually said the teaching of grace has set people free. Yet it is the hyper grace that is dangerous to people.
the scribes and pharisees thought Jesus was dangerous to people too…
😉
But if someone comes and attacks your beliefs saying that they are dangerous error that is not an “us vs. them” thing? Dr. Brown started this. Paul Ellis is just explaining and defending the truth.
Paul, thank you for continuing in the truth of grace. I believe a number of years ago it was the “hyper-faith’ and the ‘name it and claim it’ labels that abounded. It is first and foremost grace and it is last and only grace! Grace is freedom, and as someone said, “Freedom isn’t freedom until you are free to fail.” People are afraid of grace; they are afraid to allow people the freedom to fail. Grace is spiritual; grace is relying on the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which has set us free from the law of sin and death. I’m glad I’m free in Christ, yes, even to fail! Grace is ‘super-abounding’ and it goes above and beyond anything that we could ever ask, think or hope!! Labels come and labels go..but grace will ever abide!
Hi Paul, I don’t consider I can describe myself as – being saved, coming to faith, evangelical, charismatic, born again, pre / post, modern, hyper or any other word, phrase or inadequate terminology that boxes me up or categorises me. I’m simply a follower of Jesus; my relationship with Him is of highest priority. And yes, I am institutionally challenged.
Substitutionary grace is a figment of a fear filled imagination. Perfect love casts out……
The practice of substitution is the devils best invention. When our experience of Jesus doesn’t match our expectation (that we invariably were sold by others), we rush off down Substitute Street, ending up in one of the cul-de-sacs – Legal Lane, Church Way, Bible Boulevard, Good Works Path etc. Due to lack of spiritual maintenance most of the cul-de-sacs have deep ruts . It is difficult to get out of the ruts and we are easily fooled into thinking we must be on the right track as so many others have passed this way. There is a proliferation of dressing up OT legalism in NT terminology.
What bothers me most about Dr Browns article is that if God is not happy with us at times, Where do you draw the line? what “sins” make Him unhappy? just the big ones? If you take that to the logical end then He would NEVER be happy with us because we are always blowing it. So it reveals a works/self righteous attitude which is law in my Bible. (Eph 2:8,9 would go great here)This is why we need Grace and trust through faith that God is happy and in love with us no matter what. When I realize I;ve not been living by faith (the real only sin) I don’t have to be guilt ridden for 2 weeks before I can come before Him. I can go to Father and know He says I love and accept you just the way you are and fall right into His arms. Does this sound like something that makes us want to sin? It seems to me the real big sins being commited are not in the “grace camp” but in the institutional church? So I don’t know who he is refering to about hyper gracers living in all kinds of sin. If we are “Hyper Grace” what are they? Hyper religous? Hyper law?
How about “greater grace” James 4:6 NASB?
The message Paul preaches is the Gospel. That is, the finished work of Christ. All faith, no work. Others preach and have heard a different “gospel” their whole life, a message mixed with law.
I don’t think labels are helpful. They lead to categorizing people and thus we’re able to write them off easier (and others will be able to write us off easier). I think it’s un-glorifying, unloving, and perhaps even dehumanizing. I think it will be more beneficial, rather than accepting the hyper-grace term, to say that we are simply promoting the gospel, the original good news. I think that will create and attract more curiosity and more readers than accepting a label, and thus I think it will be more beneficial for Christianity as a whole if we work from this orientation/perception – that is that we are simply preaching the original happy good news! Make sense?
Grace Place for me 🙂
‘You’re hyper-grace, let me get you some spiritual Ritalin…’
that’s funny Stephen…
I spent 30 some years TRRYYIIINNNGGG to be a good Christian because of my mixture understanding of law and grace. I was never a fully law oriented person but I had enough law and sin consciousness to keep me defeated. When I discovered the real gospel I got free and realized that what I had been striving for on my own strength and could never quite reach, Jesus had already done for me. OH what a relief it is. It is not about what I do it is all about what Jesus did for me. He got the perfect report card and gave it to all of us as a free gift. Yea God!
We could call ourselves grace believers
Phillip Waite – well said! I concur!
Alicia – I’ve never read a post that so perfectly parallels my own heart and my own story. I completely agree and feel that same way.
Being raised in a shame based religion and experiencing a lot of spiritual abuse caused tremendous fear and doubt in my life. Praise God I found grace. Oops! I didn’t find grace – He found me!!! Yay! I am so much happier (a nice by-product) and productive as a human being and believer. I no longer live in fear, shame or guilt that I won’t please Him. I’ve been trying (lots of work and I was so tired) to please Him for many years.
For Paul – I personally like the term hyper-grace because that’s how I feel about it. You described it beautifully – it promotes the gospel by accurately conveying the way grace operates – energetically and actively. I love this picture – flowing in the energy of the Holy Spirit. I love life when I’m in that flow of Grace! Even though I don’t care for labels – something inside me wants to agree with Joel above – take it on! The problem I see is that some people won’t see it the way we do and yet that is always going to happen.
Also, in regard to suggesting we are an exclusive camp within the body of Christ – it seems like it might alienate people before they even have the chance to hear the gospel of Grace.
Within the body of Christ there are many differing beliefs regarding different aspects and interpretations of grace and scripture in general for that matter. I agree with Dr. Brown on so many things (that I’ve read) but the big difference for me was when he said we could lose our salvation. That’s a frightening belief – I’ve been there and wondered and fretted in fear whether I would qualify. I never felt like I quite measured up. That belief affects your life negatively in so many ways…so, I refuse to go there again – hyper-grace is what I want! Jesus is explicit on that as far as I’m concerned beginning with John 3:16.
As we keep preaching Jesus and His amazing gifts of grace and righteousness and pray that more and more people will not only hear the message of pure grace but will respond to it – it (the movement) will keep growing. He is working in the world mightily and that
becomes more and more obvious by all the negative responses to the message of amazing Grace – Jesus Himself and His work on our behalf.
I first read Joseph Prince’s book and then I connected with your website and Cornel’s. I’ve been so blessed by the teaching of pure Grace. Please keep it up and know you are blessed and a blessing!
Just a thought… Romans 5:20 states where sin abounds, Grace abounds much more (or super-abounds) – that word for superabounds is “huperperisseuo” – The first part of the word “huper” is actually where the word “hyper” is derived from – so calling people who believe in the superabundance of grace “hyper-grace” is not really an insult, no matter how the writer intended it. 🙂 Keep doing what you’re doing! You are a blessing!
Good point Shannon. I feel that whatever anyone wants to call it, isn’t grace really and truly defined by our lives and what we do with our lives? And even as we learn to walk and live by grace, our actions most likely will be misunderstood anyway. I know that I’m attempting to live from grace as I best understand.
For any writer to say we’re hypergrace is almost like a confirmation from God. I don’t know how it’ll play out but I think someone already mentioned the Lord will take care of this. I can’t imagine it being through winning an argument but the Lord will do something so people know we’re His. That way he gets the glory.
Also I’ve been thinking about different denominations and how I used to be worried about that a long time ago until I heard one preacher mention “there are many blood bought (insert denomination here) too. I won’t mention which one he said. The Lord prayed we would be one. I don’t think we’re going to end up starting that one denomination when His prayer comes to pass :). I wonder whether those that would label us know know the Greek word there in Romans 5:20. No matter what we’re called though I’m going to enjoy hypergrace as this scripture states. And in Acts it says “great grace was upon them all”. I’ll take all I can get as I’m sure many here feel also.
Paul, I just wanted to send you a quick note of encouragement. I don’t post often, but I do read just about all your posts. God has been revealing the truth of his grace to me for about the last 2-3 years. Some of it has been direct revelation from him and much of it has been through books and resources such as E2R. Your book and your website have played a VITAL role in the joy and freedom that I have found in Christ and I appreciate everything thing you have done to preach and teach the good news of the gospel. You have touched my life tremendously and I am sure there are hundreds of others out there who feel the same way. I wish you the very best and will enjoy watching as this ministry touches more and more lives around the world. Bless you brother!
How about Grace Resort? Relaxing and resting in the Finished Work!
Dr. Michael Brown writes in his article “Hyper-Grace Horror Stories: “3) Hyper-grace teachers commonly claim that the words of Jesus no longer apply to us. Instead, they argue, Jesus’ teaching was for the Jews under the Law before the new covenant was inaugurated, whereas Paul brought the message of grace. If this false dichotomy doesn’t raise a red flag of warning, nothing will. Simply stated, any teaching that minimizes (or even ignores) the teachings of Jesus should be rejected.”
I am still new learning about the message of grace but this statement scares me.
Exactly. You’re meant to be scared, because it’s fear of being deceived that is promoted continuously within this kind of teaching. I find what you quoted Brown saying regarding what “hyper-grace teachers” commonly claim is a blanket statement that doesn’t properly represent what grace/gospel teachers actually teach. At least as far as I’ve read from them. He is making it sound like those that preach grace say we are to disregard all of Jesus’ teachings. Rubbish. I have instead learned that there’s a difference in what Jesus said to those who were under the law and were self-righteous, compared to what He said to sinners who knew their need of Him, and I never got taught that by the fear-promoting teachings that kept me in bondage to their message of self effort.
That’s it Kirsty. If we grace teachers ignored what Jesus said, we’d be ignoring the very grace he came to reveal. “Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ”! I have written elsewhere on the ways Jesus revealed grace and for those new to all this, I recommend reading that post. The gospel of grace is really the gospel of Jesus.
Those who are uninformed about covenants do not realize that Jesus lived under the old covenant AND ushered in the new covenant. There’s a straddling of covenants either side of the cross. This is why it is dangerous to do everything Jesus said as some of what he said was intended for those living under law. The genius of Jesus is that he could speak to the crowds and dispense law to the law-lovers and grace to the hurting at the same time.
Don’t let another scare you Renate. I too am new. (last May) and I was very protective of my new found Truth when I discovered it. Hold onto what you have received. Keep listening to Grace teachers, and believe it’s true. My friend told me she just could hardly believe it was 1- this easy and 2- God is THAT good. Well my friend, believe it. Lord knows we are simple (He calls us sheep) and we couldn’t figure out something too difficult with so many rules. So, God’s plan is suppose to be simple, a child can understand. If you would like to talk further, feel free to email me. I’d be happy to encourage you in any way I can. gdsienia@yahoo.com. Blessings and Peace to you.
It doesn’t much matter what we want to call it. What will history call it? Probably a movement, just as you indicated in this piece. It’s a movement of people that believe certain things, but it’s more importantly a movement of God that is changing the hearts of His people and the future of the church. All past movements have done just that, and so will this one. Thanks for your contribution. It’s thoughtful and powerful.
Please, no more labels. As soon as they get hung around my neck I tear them off, except the one which names Jesus. Remember Christ is not divided, and the gospel is not about clever words but the cross.
I was going to say more but I’m not as clever or eloquent as all you brilliant posters, but thank you for such an interesting discussion. And Paul, thank you many times over for your generosity of time and effort in publishing.
I have to process this to answer your question about how would I feel if someone said I believe in “hyper-grace.” The thing I keep coming back to because of this conversation is that as I understand it Martin Luther was excommunicated for believing in “salvation by grace through faith.” So the stakes can be high.
I can see the concern that people would abuse this teaching, as you point out they did in Paul’s day. Somewhere I believe you have written about us living in both the spiritual and physical world. Spiritually I am the righteousness of Christ in God. In this world, there are consequences to my behavior and I need to live out the gospel the best I can by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Persecution is around the world in different form and shape! In the Philippines, we are not exempted. Our City pastoral movement is the only group in MetroManila that weekly celebrates Jesus & His Finished Work. Because of this we are branded that we are engrossed with “grace teaching” and this implies that we are “hyper grace”. Paul, we are very thankful to God & to you for the Gospel In Ten Words which has been circulating here in spite of this label put on us. Many of our fellows want your book to be translated in Tagalog and this is why we plan to publish this. Of course with your permission through Pastor Paul Mata. I am proud of you, Paul for your humility and I suggest that you continue spreading Christ & His Work until those who are not in our “camp” will be enlightened and they will be with us soon, after all Jesus said that He has sheep which is not iin the fold yet. Stay blessed, Paul!
Thanks Edison, I am so encouraged when I hear what God is doing with this message in the Philippines. I understand Filipino’s to be a naturally joyful people. How you guys must explode with extra joy once you get the revelation of grace, I cannot imagine! But I’m sure it’s good.
Hey Edison! We are in another Island of the Philippines. We are in Davao City we are also seeing Gods grace spread here. We also are having grace confrences with pastors. So many testamonies cannot count them all. Im so excited about this persucution! It will increase this Gospel of grace. We are about to put together a crusade to reach around 700 to 1000 people for Christ. Also we will have a grace confrence with pastors.
Here is a word for everybody! You remember in the book of Acts Paul in the Bible put wood in the fire then a snake bite him. Then he shook it off into the fire.The same fire that caused this snake to bite him was the same fire that burned up the snake. When we get bite preaching grace. What do we do? we just preach more grace. I can say this! This past week when Dr. Brown attacked the pure grace message. I have grown more in grace in a week than I did in six months. Did anybody else experince that as well? I belive this attack will increase and cause this gospel of grace to exploid.
Presley and Edison! So good to hear whats happening in the Philippines! Special country, special people! Also really don’t like labels, just causes more division. Reality is we all have a propensity to “label” anything and anyone, good or bad, happened in the early church as well!
I remember years ago leaving this one “denomination” I won’t say which. And this was before caller I.D. but was constantly harrased and being begged to come back because I had “Fallen from Grace” which they also interpreted as loosing my salvation. But several times they commented and said with a snear “you’re one of those “Gracers” I guess they meant it as an insult, but I appreciated their observation. They accused me of falling from grace then called me a Gracer. Still scratch my head over that one.
There is no such thing as hyper-grace. That is a redundancy. Grace, by it’s own definition is much bigger than just “hyper!”
“Hyper-grace” suggests we are pushing for something greater than God. Does anyone see the irony in that? What lengths we humans go through to limit God!
I just read the follow up article….and it seems to me that Dr Brown and others admit there are testimonies of people getting free with what Grace really means, however there are many abusing it too. That sounds just like the governments sort of reasoning / moving toward more and more “regulating of the people”. Because some people abuse or misuse something, then we need more laws. For example, the cold medicine Sudafed. It brought more relief to those suffering that the drug addicts. Yet, the government stepped in and banned it! Wha?? So the many are punished for the few?? That doesn’t seem right. So some abuse Grace. Yeah, and plenty abuse Christianity too. Do we ban the bible or limit those “abusers” and go and take their bibles away. See how silly this gets? Seems we are called to not “judge before the time”. How do you know that a grace “abuser” isn’t just passing thru a stage and will find balance? Who are you to regulate God’s word?
I am one of the set free, after 30 yrs of religion. I am SO thankful for those who taught the True Gospel and trusted me into the hands of the Father. What I had before was def NOT good news. I was embarrassed to share the religion I’d been taught and all the rules. So I kept quiet. Now, you can’t shut me up. I have shared with multiple young people and 4 in the last 6 months professed belief in Christ. This Grace movement is exciting and I am thrilled to be a part. Thanks Paul, keep standing for Freedom.
I think John Newton got it right:
Amazing Grace.
The not-so-often-sung verses:
T’was Grace that taught…
my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear…
the hour I first believed.
Through many dangers, toils and snares…
we have already come.
T’was Grace that brought us safe thus far…
and Grace will lead us home.
The Lord has promised good to me…
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be…
as long as life endures.
Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.
I love Amazing Grace – it is the king of hymns! Yet there is one line in it that doesn’t fully capture how I feel about grace:
“How precious did that Grace appear the hour I first believed.”
Grace was precious the first hour but has actually become more precious over time. God’s grace is far more precious to me now than ever before. I imagine it will become ever more precious still as I further explore the limitless boundaries of his love for me.
Agreed =o).
Let me add to my last comment: Grace that is precious can denote worth and/or fagility; for those new in Christ, Grace may be worth a lot to them but they don’t yet understand the confidence they can have in Grace; those who learn the depths of God’s Grace understand its great worth and stability and can rest secure therein.
Grace if it was not precious in th first instance, you may not have grown this big that many in Bangalore also get a taste of what you got. Jesus is always precious, always reveals new love He has for us.
picky,picky
played on the bagpipes it makes me cry.
Yes JGIG I think it says it all, and it always makes me tear up as it was sung at my mum and dad’s funerals. Its great to read the unsung verses. Will make sure we sing them at our house church next Thursday. I always want to holler when we sing “when we’ve been there 10,000 years! Thank you.
Hyper-Grace tends to have a negative connotation to those who don’t understand what hyper means nor do they have understanding that this “so called” hyper grace gospel is in fact, what Paul preached and what he was obviously persecuted for.
I think the term HyperGrace describing us grace people is at first glance a derogatory term. It congers up thoughts that we are “off”. Anyone coming from a Law background and first hearing about (first taking notice) of the Grace message, they are offended because we have spoken against the ten commandments. Until we Grace folks get some of our theology correct and in sink with each other, we do sound like we are “off,” The notion that God does not see our sins anymore, is hard to believe, even for me, a “Grace er.” What about in Revelation when he judges the sinner? He has to see the sin, right? I like what Steve Hackman said “he no longer sees us as sinners!” not that He doesn’t see our sins, that makes more sense. How about when we Gracers talk about “the curse has been reversed”. Well, yea, but why are we still dying if we are now like Adam was before the fall? So what does the curse has been reversed really mean? How about when we tell them that Protection and Health were provided for us at the cross and we still get sick and “things” still happen to us? How about that Joseph Prince preaches that tithing is still a new testament thing to do and so many Grace preachers say that it is an OldTestament Law? I believe in the Grace of God, “Jesus” His son, but I have too many questions that need to be answered before I even think about becoming an expert on Grace and come across as being “hyper”. We all need to get on the same page. I thank the Lord for you, Paul Ellis, Andrew Farley and others that are helping me sort this out.
Paul, have you considered visiting us here in the Philippines that you may witness personally how your book impacted us here, much more when Tagalog translation reaches our provinces. I just thought of this, maybe what is happening in this GRACE is just a part of God’s overall plan to show how gracious He is to all people every time the accuser of the brethren maligns the Person of Grace-Jesus!
Thanks Edison,
I have had quite a few invites actually, but I am doing no traveling in the current season. Maybe in the future.
I always like the term “Grace Revolution” by Joseph Prince.
I’m a composition teacher and one of the things I teach my students is argument. One type of argument is an argument of definition. The topic of same-sex marriage is one of definition. There are those who want to define marriage as a relationship existing between a man and a woman, and there are those who want to modify that definition. Anyways, the discussion we’ve been having is really one of definition. How do we define the grace of the gospel?
I don’t like the idea of adopting this term “hyper-grace” because it really is changing the game. No longer does the argument become one of definition, but now we are modifying grace as it exists. Grace isn’t just grace, it’s hyper-grace. It’s almost like we’re saying, “Okay, you can have the word grace and the definition you want to apply to it. We’ll concede and pick a new word, hyper-grace, and apply our definition to that.”
I’m not sure if I made a bit of sense there 🙂
I like the idea of calling it a “grace awakening.”
Dr. Brown’s new article is simply a case of “Poisoning the Well” and overlooks the number of people who’s lives have been freed from addictions and sins because of the Grace message. Notably, Dr. Brown doesn’t talk about those people.
My response is here.
Shalom Paul,
I got discovered by Grace more than a year now. Before I always in fright and fear of God’s rejection. Now I stand secure in His promise and love. Grace has change and promote me higher than before, and there is nothing I do to add it up.
I encourage you to do and write more Grace. If Dr Brown wants to do all Jesus’ words, his church soon will be an amputational ward (if you sin with your eyes, pluck it out. If you sin with your hands, chop it away). No man under law would dare to do that, no way!
So, you must have rejected Jesus’ words, unless the word is not meant for you, but for the OC keeper.
God bless you Paul Ellis.
I kinda like the term “hyper-grace.” That’s because Jesus is hyper when it comes to loving us. (Think about dying for the one you love, aint that hyper?) What do we know? It might be the next reference to us as christians, since the term “christian” is initially used as labelling for the early church.