“Confronting the Error of Hyper-Grace” – a response to Michael Brown
In a recent CharismaNews article, Dr. Michael Brown confronts what he calls the “dangerous error” of the hyper-grace movement. He describes the foundational doctrines of this movement as follows; (1) we have been made righteous by the blood of Jesus, (2) all our sins have been forgiven, (3) the Holy Spirit never convicts believers of sin, and (4) we need never repent for nor confess our sins.
Although I would qualify the last point, Dr. Brown has done a fair job summarizing the gospel that we in the grace movement proclaim. (Some movement – it’s 2000 years old!) Those who are united with Christ are just as holy and righteous as he is (1 Cor 1:30); God dealt with our sins once and for all on the cross (Heb 10:12); and consequently the Holy Spirit remembers our sins no more (Heb 10:17).
As for repentance and confession, the Bible tells us that these words mean different things to different people. Repentance in the old covenant meant turning from sin but repentance in the new means turning to God. As the Pharisees showed, you can turn from sin until you’re dizzy but it won’t make you righteous. However, you cannot turn to God without leaving your old life behind.
Similarly, confession under the old covenant meant reviewing one’s sins, but confession in the new means agreeing with God. It’s a subtle difference with profound consequences. Reviewing your sins in the vain hope of earning forgiveness or fellowship will ultimately leave you guilty and sin-conscious. This sort of confessing-to-be-forgiven is a faithless work of the flesh. In contrast, healthy confession will always leave you focused on Jesus and his finished work.
Where Dr. Brown takes issue with the grace movement is in the claim that “when God looks at us, he loves what he sees.” Dr. Brown provides examples from scripture that seem to challenge this idea. Did Jesus love what he saw in the Revelation churches? Did Paul love what he saw in the Galatians? Obviously not for Jesus and Paul both rebuked what they saw.
The punch-line of Dr. Brown’s message is that we must purify ourselves from everything that contaminates. He concludes by describing self-purification and the pursuit of holiness as our “beautiful, lofty calling.”
There is a way that seems right to man…
I would argue that Dr. Brown’s conclusion leads to exactly the same sort of self-reliance that caused Jesus to get nauseous over the Laodiceans. It promotes the same sort of performance-based Christianity that caused the Ephesians to forget their first love and the Galatians to fall from grace.
Dr. Brown’s concerns regarding sin’s destructiveness are on the money. But the gospel Jesus revealed and Paul preached is first and foremost a declaration of God’s love. The gospel is the unqualified announcement that God loves us and will do whatever it takes to get us back, even if it means dying on a cross.
Dr. Brown surely knows this for the word “love” appears 13 times in his short article. But where Dr. Brown and many Christians get confused, is what we must do in response. Evidently, Dr. Brown thinks we must turn from sin. (The word “sin” appears 14 times in his article.) But this is old-covenant thinking. It is selling the love of God for the price of a little old fashioned repentance. It is not the gospel of unmerited grace.
One of the most stunning claims in the Bible comes from Romans 5:8: “But God demonstrates his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” If God loved us while we were still sinners, he surely loves us now. We don’t repent and confess or do anything to merit God’s love but because we are loved. The love of God is the foundation of all we are and do.
This is why Jesus rebuked the Ephesians – not because they weren’t loving God enough, but because they had left their primary love. Like many Christians today they had got so caught up doing things for God that they forgot to do the most important thing of all, which is to receive and remain in their Father’s love.
“Remember the height from which you have fallen,” said Jesus. “Repent, and do what you did at first.” What had they done at first? Well what did you do when you first came to Christ? You probably did nothing other than receive his love. “Do that,” says Jesus. “Stay in the high place of my love and you won’t fall back into the old ways of trying to earn what I have freely given you.”
Dr. Brown asks an important question: “Does God always love what he sees when he looks at his people?” According to him, the answer is no. God doesn’t like what he sees when he looks at us. Our sins grieve him. But here’s the thing: we are not our sins.
The most important question
Defining people in terms of their behavior is old-covenant thinking. It is not how God relates to us. Children are defined by their parents. In his article Dr. Brown asks no less than 20 questions but he never asks the most important question of all: Who’s your Daddy? This is the question Jesus came to answer.
Want to know what your heavenly Father is like? Look to Jesus. Jesus is exactly like his Father (John 10:30). This is why we are told again and again to fix our eyes on Jesus.
And this is why I have a problem with any message that distracts us from Christ, even a religious message that frets over sin. You simply cannot focus on yourself and Jesus at the same time. You cannot attend to your shortcomings and behold his glorious perfections simultaneously. It’s one or the other. It’s you or him. Who are you going to trust?
Our calling is not to try and purify ourselves in the vain hope we might become pleasing and acceptable to God. Trust me – your best efforts will never be good enough.
Rather, our beautiful and lofty calling is to, “Be imitators of God, as beloved children” (Eph 5:1). We don’t imitate God to become his children, but because we are his children, and dearly-loved.
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*Special note: For those looking for a more detailed response to Dr. Brown’s scriptural examples, check out the articles I have written on Jesus’ warnings to the churches in Ephesus, Sardis, and Laodicea. I have also written on what it means to be friends of the world and I have a forthcoming post on what it means to fall from grace. If you’re having trouble reconciling what I wrote above with what you have been taught, it will greatly help if you first understand what makes the new covenant new.
Escape to Reality 
I can just agree with a lot of people here that Joseph Prince first opened my & my brother’s eyes to the Good News (Gospel of Grace), then Andrew Wommack just slammed all of our man-made teachings to the floor & then…Curry Blake’s teachings blew our minds! Not elevating any men to idols, just saying these guys truly understand & teach the Gospel to a point where it changes your life effortlessly & practically.
Dustin
First sorry I couldn’t reply to an earlier post. This site has limited “reply” capability.
Here is a link to another dear bother’s blog(Cornel Marais whom E2R is familiar with) and he has some good things to say about what you’re asking I believe.
http://www.charismaministries.org/does-the-holy-spirit-convict-christians-of-their-sins/
Thanks, Felix 🙂
The law was our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Jesus came to deliver us from the law. The Holy Spirit was given to be our conviction. What we do with that is irrelevant to our salvation or favor with God. When He looks at us He sees the blood of his Son, not whether or not we are following “the law”. Our sins are remembered no more and the Spirit gives us the desire to do good and keep trying when we fail. Our sin nature does not disappear nor will it ever. That is why we turn TO Christ in our sin. We don’t clean it up to approach him worthily. We never were and we never will be. Focusing on the law and making it a part of grace is discrediting Jesus’ finished work.
This concept of God seeing the blood of His Son when he sees us doesn’t make sense. Under the Old Covenant, the sacrifices of goats and bulls ‘covered’ the sins of the Jews, which had to be repeated year after year, but John the baptist introduced Jesus by saying “Behold, the Land of God which ‘takes away’ the sins of the world”.
I believe that the finished work on the cross is sufficient to wash us perfectly clean, and it is an agreement between Father and Son that the world may be reconciled through the death and resurrection of the Son.
As for ‘sinful nature’ I suggest you read: Do Christians Still Have a Sinful Nature? by Ryan Rufus
To Paul Ellis, A friend introduced me to The Gospel in 10 Words and every time I read in it, I am blessed. I think this movement should be called “Radical Grace”, or “Extreme Grace”, or even “Ultimate Grace.” However, I like “Radical Grace” best because I believe the good news Jesus brought the Jews of his days was “radical.” It also seems that your message is “radical” to many people today. For many years I have said about Hebrews 4:2 and 4:9-10, “There is a rest for God’s people and they entered not in because of unbelief. Today they enter not in because they have not be taught.” Thank you for bringing that teaching to our world today. Carole Hustead
Hi Carole, thanks for your encouraging feedback. I like radical grace too. Jesus made a radical impression when he walked the earth. Paul was radical when he said a complete no to the law. And yes, since so many have never heard of the gospel of undiluted grace, the message remains as radical as ever.
You know in a way, whatever passages the critics of Paul Ellis throws his way on obedience is tangential. If I have to avoid to eating on 6 days, avoid making any contact with all women, and confess every single sin I ever committed since age 3 in order to avoid eternal agony in a burning hell, it all misses the point. Why? Because either you have confidence that Christ is faithful to live in you to meet *every single one of these* requirements and a 1,000,000,000+E(Google Plex) more that God would put on you to be acceptable to Him … or you do not have the confidence. If I am wrong about this then 2 Thess. 5:23-24; Gal. 2:20; Phil 2:13; Rom. 6:22; Rom. 7:5-6; Rom 8:1-39 and many more verses are all lies that need to be ripped from the hinges of our Bibles!
1) You can trust in your good judgements, motivations, resiliency, discipline in order to life a life pleasing to God and get to heaven or …
2) You can trust in Christ in you the hope of glory (Col. 1:27) to both “will” and “do” “his good pleasure.” That’s radical childlike faith that God will make it happen. Are you willing to bet it all on that?
Enjoy reading the gospel in 10 words and following this discussion about the hypergrace article.This discussion reminds me of what Paul in Rom3:8 and 6:1 was saying as he was attacked about his grace message and accussed of saying lets sin more that grace might increase. As A. Wommack reminds us if your grace message is not attacked like Paul’s (pun intended) was you are probably not preaching the gospel like the apostle Paul did. Equally if your grace message is attacked due to stating the outrageous bountifulness of God’s love and grace you are most likely on the right track. I find you can only see certain things about the wonderful grace message and not wanting to continue in sin if you have received it. Until then it does not make full sense and I can see that someone may be concerned about bountiful grace as a license to continuing in sin so that they think you have to do something about it. Of course it sounds like circular reasoning but you can only look and perceive from your vantage point.
After reading all the comments it *SEEMS* that everyone in the law camp is living a very holy and obedient life whereas all in the Grace camp are living a disobedient and unholy life.
Lol
I’m totally agreeing with Paul’s article.
You remember when Charisma have on his cover the Prince of peace? I think mister Brown start preparing his article 🙂
Response to thewordandprayer: I would definitely say that our interactive relationship with God involves correction for things we are doing that don’t line up with Him. But I believe His aim is to encourage us in faith. Paul told the Corinthians to test themselves to see if they were in the faith (he did not say to test themselves to see if we were doing everything just right). He then goes on to remind them that Jesus Christ was in them (this is in 2Cor.13:5). So I think God will always remind the believer of the sufficiency that is found in grace and faith rather than simply where we are missing it.
John, I appreciate your comment 🙂 Yea, I feel we must rest fully in the finished work from the heart to experience new Life, which is of faith–a completely different mindset than Law.
Where I’m coming from with the point on Hebrews 12 isn’t about trying to convince people that God punishes us or rebukes us with hatred. My concern is for those who are turned away from good grace preaching because they hear this teaching that “the Spirit does not convict of sin”, which to many sounds like this: “God will never correct, father or guide us when we are in error.” And so people who have a clear revelation of grace are written off as not credible, and that hurts my heart. It almost seems like an issue of semantics and definitions of words.
My other concern is for those who love God’s unadulterated grace: when they hear someone saying, “But God does convict of sin, something seems off in your teaching,” they can immediately peg the person concerned with “mixing Law and grace” when that is the last thing on their mind.
Make sense?
Bless you 🙂
I Hope Paul allows this link. The current run of Joseph Prince’s daily tv broadcast is #142. Specifically part #1 broadcast on Thursday this past week. This particular episode speaks directly to the content of this E2R post. It is uncanny how appropriate this JP teaching is to the subject at hand. Please watch this 28 minute video….everyone including Dr Brown.
It’s titled “Put the “Amazing” Back into Grace”
Thank you. I was greatly blessed by the link provided. As the bride of Christ we are all united through what Jesus has done for us. The all together lovely one the all together beautiful one. Shalom.
John, Felix and jennie, sorry if there is confusion: my logins changed: I’m both Dustin Horstmann and thewordandprayer 😉
You are blessings! – Dustin
Christopher, I would not have guessed that anybody would assume that I meant God LITERALLY only sees blood when he looks at us, but rather understand that when he looks at us we are CLEAN because his Son’s BLOOD has washed away our sins. Not just for the moments, hours or days after salvation before we sinned again. As for our sin nature, I am a Christian and I still have a sin nature. If I didn’t, it would not be so hard not to be sarcastic and patronizing in my replies. The Holy Spirit is reminding me to be a good girl. It straight up makes me angry that so many on here INSIST on forcing the LAW (not specifically you) into God’s GRACE, his finished work. We GRACE only-ers are like “God’s grace is sooooo amazing” and the Grace/Law combiners are like “Well…it’s not THAT amazing….yeah, but….words….knowledge…old covenant…words…yeah, but” IT IS FINISHED. THE PRICE IS PAID. STAND IN AWE.
I would say it is dis-honest for people to say that they consider hyper grace means that we can live anyway we want or our actions do not matter, or we can say we can follow Christ but live in rebellion.
I tend to see this on doctor brown page ask brown but I really do not want to jump into a frying pan, trying to dig in exegesis etc….
I think Dr,brown info on 1 john 1:9 IS not correct, this is how I see it
1 John 1:9 in ref. to confessing our sins, was written in context to people who believed that they had no sin (1 John 1:8,10). And if they believe that they had no sin, then they must also believe that they had no need of God’s forgiveness for sin. And if they believed that they had no need of God’s forgiveness for sin, they would neither confess their sins, nor would they thank and praise God for forgiving them of their sins, because they believed that they had no sin.
Absolutely!!! you can CLEARLY see this when you read it correctly.
I cannot get over this! The law camp keeps accusing the grace camp of living and preaching a license of sin???? But the grace camp are the only ones who are sharing testimonies of getting freedom and deliverance from sin??
Paul now I really understand what the apostle Paul meant when he wrote this verse.
“Some people are actually trying to put such words in our mouths, claiming that we go around saying, “The more evil we do, the more good God does, so let’s just do it!” That’s pure slander, as I’m sure you’ll agree. (Romans 3:8 MSG)
Who is this cryptic “law camp?”
There is no camp! Just a bad term I used. Sorry J.C. if i offended you. I did not realize how bad it sounded. Better term would be Just grace alone or mixture of law and grace.
Funny how that works . . .
Those who pursue Torah observance (Hebrew Roots Movement) often boast about how glad they are that YHWH has shown them His Torah so that *they* can avoid sinning (most of which concerns works of the flesh – observance of Feasts, days, and dietary laws, etc.). While they pridefully boast in their obedience, they constantly chide others who don’t do as they do and order *believers in Christ* to repent (according to their false definition of repent from their ‘Torahlessness’ before it’s too late! Too late for what? Those who are in Christ are cleansed-by-the-blood, redeemed-by-Christ, believers in Him! We are the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21)!
Jesus did not come to make Law-breakers into Law-keepers, He came to make spiritually dead people into spiritually alive people. And since we are alive in Him, the Fruits of the Spirit are demonstrated in our lives, manifesting in the works that He has prepared in advance for us to do, chiefly the Fruit/works of Love (of which, imo, all the other Fruits of the Spirit are elements), which fulfills all the commands that God requires of us after Christ came (John 6:28-29, 1 John 3:23, Rom. 13:8-14, Eph. 2:10, Gal. 5:16-26).
So wait – let’s get this straight – the Fruits of the Spirit fulfill the commands of God? And we ‘achieve’ this by abiding by faith in Christ? Whoa!
Paul, I am so pleased that you gave your previous life as a lawyer up to preach about Jesus aka grace. I am sad for those who responded to your above post out of anger and some, ignorance of the Father’s love.
I can’t wait for those guys esp to be dipped into the fondue of Christ’s love and have them lap it up, be thoroughly soaked, and apologise to you one day.
Think you are the coolest blogger and the bravest to tackle these thoughts. Keep writing on his love buddy.
Or we can see it in this way; we need hyper (super-abounding) grace, to turn away from sin. In other words, the empowerment to sin-no-more, is found only in the Grace of God; the obedience of Christ. The only obedience that’s flawless and perfect with God’s standards, is Jesus’s obedience (2 Corinthians 10:5). His obedience is our obedience, just as His righteousness is our righteousness. With the obedience of Christ established as our only obedience, we can boldly confess in the faith of Christ, that God sees no disobedience (failure to obey, which leads to sin) in us, because all that God sees is the perfection of His Son in us. Jesus is the standard of our perfection.
God sees no sin in us when He chose to remember them no more. It truly matters how we see ourselves, as God sees us. Just as Jesus is, so are we in this world. Just as Christ is perfect without blemish, without sin, so are we, in the eyes of God. In the eyes of Man, it’s undeniable that we have a history of mistakes, but in the eyes of God, there’s abounding grace and truth, and clarity, we are perfect and sinless to Him, in the image of Christ.
As born-again believers with the Spirit of Christ living in us, God does not see our obedience nor our disobedience, all He sees is Jesus and His obedience working in and through us, Even towards non-believers, all that God sees is the blood of Jesus shed for their redemption, He does not see their sins or mistakes, because they have been forgiven through Christ’s sacrifice. The confession of a new believer, is not to confess one’s disobedience but Jesus’s obedience. I believe that the conviction of the Holy Spirit, not only point out to the world of their imperfection, but also to point out to them their need for His Grace, convicting them in their hearts that only God can help them, because they did not believe in Him (John 16:9). Helpless beyond control under the yoke of sin, because of unbelief, Holy Spirit had to convict their hearts to surrender, thus receive God’s goodness, prior to repentance, which is the renewal of the mind (metanoia), to help them believe in God who is for them, and not against them. Our sins may be evident to us, but forgiven in the eyes of God. It’s only when the sting of the law (condemnation) is removed, so will the venom of sin be removed. The thirst for God’s Grace, Jesus’s obedience, will overrule every other desire to sin. If God is no longer observing our sins, why should we?
It’s more important to observe our righteousness in Christ, than our sins. Being conscious of our sins, does us no good, except condemnation and guilt. The guilt-trip is a vicious cycle that locks us in sin, rather than liberating us from the stronghold of sin. Therefore to say that God still sees our sins, even after the finished work of Christ, is to preach a sin-conscious relationship with God, rather than a Christ-conscious relationship. The only way, truth and life, in establishing our relationship with God, is not under the exposure of our sins, but the exposure of Christ.
Guys, seriously? How do you reinterpret this scripture to evade the obvious meaning? Eph4:17-30…
I’ll say it again, and maybe it wont get editor supressed this time: “Sanctification is not a repuditation of Justification. Sanctification is the natural outgrowth of Justification. That is why Rom 12 starts with “in view of God’s mercy” and then goes on to say “offer your bodies”. You drink milk so you can get strong enough to eat meat, you don’t pout and say meat is evil, only milk is holy.
At this point I’m asking: “Why not go and find another blog about God’s ‘somewhat’ amazing grace and let this go. You guys clearly just are incapable of accepting God’s grace for what it is. You are sounding more and more like babes as you cannot absorb any of this truth. The grace that we are swallowing IS the meat and it is chewy and delicious and completely satisfying. Seriously, why not find a blog that will back up your faith/works beliefs and keep eating the Spam.” You are not going to win any arguments here. Most of us joined this page because we agree 100%. Why are you still here? It’s been argued to death now. You are not going to sway us from the truth and clearly you are not ready to accept God’s grace. As patronizing as it may sound, I encourage you to beg God to make it all clear and show you if you are in error yourselves and for heaven’s sake….leave this alone now.
Excellent comment, Durable. The Lord’s commands are clear to those who want to understand.
Sally Ann, grace is more amazing than you give it credit for: it not only brings about salvation and forgiveness, but also teaches us to deny ungodly lusts and to live righteously (Titus 2:11-12).
As much as you want to deny good works, the Bible is clear that faith without works (that is, that doesn’t produce works) is dead and cannot save (James 2:14-20). Try reading your Bible for what it says instead of dwelling on select proof-texts, it opens up a whole new level of understanding.
Dear Brother, I have been following your comments a fair bit and I read with great sadness that many like you presume and assume that those of us who decides now to live in the New Covenant have a faith with no good works and tends to live a care less life of unholiness. It keeps coming up again and again. Please remember we were like you before and we place emphasis on obedience to the law and living holy lives that is also how I use to see others. Their worth and identity is measured according to how well they obey the law – what they do. I have since repented and we pray you too will receive your revelation of His Abundant Grace soon so you too will Reign in Life! But first remember what James said a transformed soul will be like – “… Quick to Listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry.”
Shalom!!!
The bible talks about ‘works’ and ‘good works’ and there is a difference between them. ‘Works’ is when you use your own efforts to earn God’s favor and please him. That is a law principle.
‘Good works’ is looking after the poor, the widows and orphans. Good works brings glory to Jesus because the poor praise Jesus for His goodness.
By one’s effort to please God, one brings glory to oneself, whereas living under His grace, one gives glory to Jesus.
Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish J.C. Thibodaux! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
Allan, if you placed emphasis on law-keeping, then you were never like me, and don’t understand what I’m saying.
Christopher, I don’t espouse salvation by keeping of the Mosaic law (i.e. works of the law); you would dare not only misquote the scriptures but rip them out of context to attack me?
Wow!! quite a trip going through all the responses here by Pastor Paul Ellis, Pastor Ryan Rufus and Dr. Brown. Well Dr. Brown, GRACE tipped the balance cause that’s 2 against 1 (meant that on the lighter side). It was grand going through the insights that were poured out here. Pastor Rufus, eagerly waiting to hear your anointed teachings at the JESUS FESTIVAL here in the Philippines March 1. And pastor Paul Ellis, IF NOT for hyper-grace where would we be now?? I thank the Lord that you obeyed the Holy Spirit’s unction to pen down GOD’s TRUE NATURE of hyper-grace. I really don’t care what anyone labels me UNDER grace. I am what I am NOW because of the GRACE OF GOD. I am the living HYPER-life.
J.C……..sigh. Your retort did nothing. Just as all of the obvious verses thrown at ya’ll have done absolutely NOTHING for you. Like Mr. Panmei said…..CALL us whatever you want! We are free from the law. Ya’ll need to stop assuming that we’re standing on the corner waiting for a drug deal with our porn magazines!!!! I’m gonna take an educated guess here and assume that the people following this blog and arguing with you here take an extreme interest in God, and things above and desire to live lives that mimic Christ though for entirely different reasons. I’ve been on the other side. I know exactly why you’re thinking what you think. Half of the comments on here are textbook replies and extremely predictable. They sound exactly like the half a zillion sermons I heard growing up in legalism. Dare you study AGAINST your belief? Dare you take the challenge to see if enough prayer and openness can sway your deep roots of misunderstanding? When I began re-studying the Bible with an open heart and neutrality, I found an entirely different GRACE. I figured, what’s the harm of investigating and studying AGAINST it. I’ve been brainwashed to believe other insanely legalistic “truths”. If I’m right, I’ll only strengthen my beliefs. If I’m wrong, I may have an understanding of God’s love that was IMPOSSIBLE for me to feel with my previously inaccurate notions. Nobody said it’s easy to evaluate everything you believe. I’m asking you guys to PRAY. This is coming from someone who was on your “side”. DELETE your “worthiness” and where do you feel you stand with God? I promise you seeing God’s grace for what it truly is will only make you love Him so much more.
Sally Ann,
My retort cut down your nonsensical smears about “somewhat amazing grace.”…
Thanks JC, but we’re done. Normally I give critics one chance to speak and one further opportunity to respond. You’ve been given several opportunities beyond that and nothing good has come of it. You are entitled to your views but I am entitled to keep these threads clear of ugliness. Sayonara.
Hi Sally, I’ve read your response, and also your post re: sheep and shepherd (Amen!). I too grew up in a very religious environment (Catholicism), and more recently, Pentecostalism (where I was taught about salvation, but interestingly enough there were also religious traditions, and a mixture of law and grace, which can almost be more deadly than pure law). What I’ve come to realize is that revelation of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ — grace, can only be revealed by revelation. We will never be able to win an argument on this subject. And for me, I have to remind myself that I too was stuck in religion, and law, and works, and sin for almost forty-three years. I can’t expect that I will sway someone in one posting, although I guess we can always try….and always with love. Blessings to you, sister!
Hi Diana,
I contend for the Gospel with those engaged in the pursuance of Torah-obedience – kind of Law-keepers to the nth degree, though in reality, they water down the Law by necessity because there is no Temple and no Levitical priesthood. What they preach is pretty much salvation by grace thru faith BUT then there are certain things that you MUST do (in their case, mandatory Torah pseudo-observance) to MAINTAIN that salvation – classic Galatianism/Judaizing.
I just want to encourage those here who contend for the Gospel that winning arguments is not what it’s about, because as you note, we will never ‘win’ the argument (in the Law-keepers’ eyes, anyway). But it is always okay to preach the Gospel of Grace (‘full preach’, as Rob Rufus likes to say), as that is the most effective way to refute false teachings.
When the Apostles came across false teachings/beliefs, the primary way that they addressed them was to reinforce the simple Truths of the Gospel: Who Christ Jesus is, what He came to do, what that actually accomplished, and who we who put our faith and trust in Him are in Him. When those Truths are *understood*, false teachings/beliefs tend to fall away. It takes time, and many prefer to strive to establish their own ‘righteousness’, but we must be content to be just a piece of the puzzle, willing to preach the Gospel in season and out of season, trusting the results to God.
I think the hardest thing about re-evaluating your beliefs and seeking to understand TRUE GRACE is that from the time you get saved with a faith/works mentality, you identify your new Christian life with works, change, manifestations. The focus from the beginning is you and what you’re doing. To question the value of these, is to question your entire Christian identity and that is terrifying. I believe this is why so many Christians get re-saved or re-commit. IF their lives have not been “pleasing” enough, they choose to assume they must have never been saved or they would have enough good works. Correct teaching would leave them simply realizing they will always be human and love God all the more that HE is there through every up & down, with unwavering love and mercy. Understand that seeing change and good works for what they truly are and giving God’s GRACE it’s full credit does not automatically mean one leaps for joy and proceeds to seek out whatever ungodliness they can get their hands on. Seriously. Consider this: If you are on a mission to thrash those that desire the world to understand God’s FULL GRACE, ask yourself WHY it’s so important to you. Is it fear that your identity and everything you have preached up until now could be a complete error? Is it pride that keeps you from giving God due credit? Why can you not accept unconditional love?
Why did Jesus compare us to sheep? Why does he call himself our Shepherd? He leads us. We make ourselves as dumb sheep to accept His grace and he leads us….not once to salvation, but our entire lives. What do you know of sheep? They are STUPID! It’s a lot of work to herd them around. They are always straying and going their own way. Yet Jesus compares us to sheep and loves us as sheep and remains our shepherd no matter how sheepy we are. He does not turn around and say “Quit acting like SHEEP!” He expects us to be sheep and came to be our shepherd anyway. Is that because He is going to beat us with his staff and we will become super sheep or cease to have any sheep-like qualities? No. A Christian leads a life not of works, but of following the Shepherd. Where ya’ll want to say FRUITS! FRUITS! MANIFESTATIONS! WORKS! We want to say “follow”. You want to define what it means to follow and add in whatever work you need to include. It is not about what we do. And what we do…do..means nothing to us but something we did because we felt we should or shouldn’t. IT. IS. NOT. ABOUT. US. He leads us. We’ll be sheep and bumble about, but He just looks at us and says “There are my precious sheep.” The simpler you can admit it is, the more amazing HE is for HIS grace. Now you may proceed to tear apart my analogy here and throw some more twisted Scriptures. READY. SET. GO!
Wow, that is so true! I love the way you describe Jesus as the Shepherd and us the sheep. Well done.
“God’s Grace is not a license to sin”, amen.
Durh!!!!!! Cuz that’s what we want is a license to sin. It’s also not a super hero cape that’s going to make you incapable of sin. “Go and sin no more”….that’s the part where YOU say…see He expected us to drive ourselves batty trying to become sinless and obey His commandment to go and sin no more. But wait, there’s more….”lest a worse thing come upon you”. Sin has it’s own consequence. It is not good for us. Those consequences are not punishment from God. This verse is not a threat. Fact is when you accept his grace, you accept his forgiveness. It is OURS to claim. Not to repeatedly beg for every time we sin. We INSULT his GRACE.
We DO feel remorse for sin. We DO NOT DESIRE TO GET AWAY WITH AS MUCH SIN AS WE CAN BECAUSE WE ARE FORGIVEN. We have the faith a child has when he has done wrong that his Daddy loves him the same. It is unconditional. We sin. We feel the Holy Spirit in our hearts. We try to do better, not because we have his disapproval, but because we want to mimic our loving Christ. We thank God we are already forgiven and continue our lives without fear loving our Shepherd all the more for being our Abba Father. Amen.
This may sound like heresy to some, but I’m just going to share something from the Bible. God said He has set before us life and death. He goes on to say choose life (Deut. 30:19). So first, there are some things in the Bible that are death to us (2 Cor. 3:6-11). We have to discern, with the help of the Holy Spirit and by letting Bible interpret Bible, which ones are life and which ones are death. Second, we have to choose the ones that are life (He said it, not me). We should not try to apply every single verse to our life. We can’t walk in life and death at the same time and see any victory. Why would God set death before us? Because we need a good dose of death in order to die to our own efforts. If you really want to live by every single verse in the Bible, do it wholeheartedly with 100% effort (leave out the parts about stoning). Then death will produce the result it is intended to – “I can’t do this, I need a Savior”. As soon as you reach out to your graceful, loving Jesus, who’s been there through it all, He says with love burning in His eyes and a smile on His face, “come closer, give Me that heavy burden and I will give you rest” (Mt. 11:28).
Thanks Christopher. Joseph Prince was talking about the Shepherd in an episode I recorded. I love him! While this thread has had a lot of annoying comments, I am really impressed by the intelligence and humility of so many others. You can really hear in some of these comments the love and awe for God. I honestly didn’t know before this blog that so many people DID understand God’s grace having never been around it. It also introduced me to Joseph Prince. I’m a lil excited about it.!!!! 🙂
I’m not sure if this has been addresed as I haven’t read through every comment but I was just thinking about something the other day. Someone brought up the scripture in Matthew 7 when Jesus turns away many and says ” I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Then go to Psalm 103 and it says ” Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities.” Okay so I was just overwhelmed because we just don’t deal with the “big sins”. The “little stuff” also matters. What got to me even more was a definition I got for iniquity long time ago which is to practice lawlessness. So in other words this is ongoing and not a one time sin. Sometimes we know what we’re doing and sometimes we don’t but I don’t feel as though I can just go sin some more. I don’t want to.
Any thoughts?
i enjoyed the article as well as reading the thread. i liked that Dr. Brown responded and there was a lovely conversation that ensued. I am reading Paul Ellis’ book and have read some of Dr. Brown’s. [I have not read the hyper-grace one]. I am pretty sure that what Dr. Brown is addressing is simple and is being misunderstood by some. I could be wrong, but here is how I see it: Yes, God’s grace IS hyper and super and mega and all that. but it doesn’t give us the right to live lives that contradict our confession and the ACTUAL DEFINITION of Grace [which is crazy-awesome!!!!!!]. And, incidentally, Paul Ellis also agrees with this if you read his stuff. I simply think Dr. Brown is highlighting the message in Jude 1:4 and Titus 1:16 that describes the danger when the message of grace is morphed into a philosophy of hedonism. It is touched on in the last half of Hebrews 10 as well. This was a problem addressed in the NT soon after the Cross and Resurrection, and it is a problem today. simple. Ellis is right about Grace and its radical nature, and Brown is right about bringing up the messages of Jude, Titus, and Hebrews, which is in effect saying we do not understand or embrace true Grace if we manifest the problems mentioned in those scriptures. now we can all stop fussing about it. LOL. just my take.
Your work here is full of contradiction that you dont even see. At least Dr. Brown made the effort to study systematic theology. You don’t show much grace toward him with your comical critique. He’s simply warning the Hypers like Jesus did the seven churches. You have just crossed the road from legalism into the opposite ditch. What is your motive for perpetuating such teaching? The central theme in the bible is not our righteousness, but His, and about His gracious acceptance of us as we willingly give-up our pet demons. God is calling us to be lovers of the truth. If we do not love it we will not find it, and though He loves us with an infinite love, we still have to go where He went…to the cross. It is those who persevere who will be rewarded. His grace is free, but it is not cheap.
John, which aspect of the post do you disagree with? Surely you are not just here to fling mud and see what sticks.
You see, John, Paul responded to Dr Brown’s comment because Dr Brown used generalization. He was generalizing us grace believers.
????
Hmmm? “willingly give up our pet demons” So you would rather a rewrite of Romans 6:23 “for the wages of sin is death but the wages of holy living is eternal life” or maybe Romans 3:22 “even the righteousness of God which is by faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon them that cleaneth up their act in addition to believing”.
I’m sorry giving up pet sins does not out work, out do, or make us prettier than the blood of Christ. Either Jesus shed blood makes you holy and acceptable or your lifestyle does and His death was vanity. (see Romans 5:8-11, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 9:24-28, Hebrews 10:10&14)
Which view cheapens grace? Hyper grace which teaches that Jesus did it all and I contribute nothing good enough to please God or the view which teaches that my self purification is equal in God’s eyes to the blood of the Son?
If you think I and others like me are looking for loopholes and wiggle room to go and sin all we want I’ll remind you what the apostle Paul had to say in Romans 6:1: “God forbid!”
The abuse of truth does not make the truth wrong.
Thank u Paul for adressing this issue 🙂 it seems to me as if all that is being discussed here is sin! We are dead to sin period!! i like what the message bible says about this ROMANS 6:1 (The message) So what do we do? Keep on sinning so God can keep on forgiving? I should hope not! If we’ve left the country where sin is sovereign, how can we still live in our old house there? Or didn’t you realize we packed up and left there for good? That is what happened in baptism. When we went under the water, we left the old country of sin behind; when we came up out of the water, we entered into the new country of grace—a new life in a new land!
Sorry for copy pasting a bible verse Paul but i think it says more than i could have said! Grace and peace.
I know Dr Brown is problably long gone from here, but I would like to ask him a perosnal question. If “Hyperthetically” lets say a missing book of the Bible was found writen by Jesus that said You can do anything you want sin, cheat on your wife it doesn’t matter etc. Would you Dr. Brown then go out and cheat on your wife? steal? etc. Even if it meant no guilt, or shame? I think I can answer for you. You would say NO you would’nt go cheat on your wife, why? because You LOVE her and have no desire to cheat on her, correct? Then how can you say “Hyper grace” people are doing exactly that? Are you saying you are a better Christian than them? What keeps you from sinning? the law, guilt, shame, chance of getting caught, or love and relationship? hmm I think the later is what we are about. 2nd I keep hearing that you are concerned about “all the horror stories” of grace people living in sin. Do you mean like, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggarty, Jim Baker, Todd Bently and more closely Brownsville revival? (There obviously was some kind of a division there that caused a split and soon end to the revival) ohh that’s right they are all from “your camp” I guess I’m kind of picking up the stones thrown and tossing them right back at you, but seriously, I have yet to hear of these stories from grace preachers, in fact everything I hear from them is how they were truly set free from sin “by Grace through faith” If you would first study, Paul Ellis, Rob & Ryan Rufus, Cornial Marais, Andrew Wommack, people who I consider the leaders of the hyper grace movement you would come to a different conclusion. There is sin in extremes from ALL camps so maybe the book should be about that?
I’m not sure why the Brownsville rival ended, but I noticed something interesting about it. I was looking at some old video of the revival and it struck me (where it had not before) that God seemed to be sending a message through the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They would often have people come up and give testimonies. As soon as someone started talking about what they did to cause the work of the Spirit in their life, they would suddenly be cut off by a move of the Spirit across the sanctuary. If a testimony was giving all the glory to God, they got to finish. It suddenly seemed that what God was trying to say throughout the revival is, “This is not about what you’re doing, this is about My grace”.
oh that is so cool! 🙂
This is an age old debate between believers. The crux of the matter is whether a believer can forfeit God’s grace. Calvinists maintain that a believer cannot. Arminians believe a believer can. Hyper grace people don’t want to fall into the ditch of legalism. Arminians don’t want to fall into the ditch of lawlessness. Paul addressed both extremes in Galatians 5. In Galatians 5:1-6 he warns believers of legalism. In Galatians 5:13-26 He warned believers of abusing God’s grace and living haphazard lives which may cause a believer to forfeit their salvation 5:21. All true believers want to please the Lord and walk according to the Spirit. Christians need to know that grace gives salvation, adoption, redemption, and that grace teaches us to say no to sin and empowers us to live holy lives. I’ve enjoyed reading the postings.
BINGO BEN,SAID WELL.
Ben, are you Paul’s brother? Or just the last name is the same.
maybe a distant cousin several hundred years removed.
I had just read your last comment, then went upstairs to read “The Sermon on the Mount” in the Message Bible. I believe his translation answers this “Brown issue”.
5 “You’re blessed when you’re content with just who you are—no more, no less. That’s the moment you find yourselves proud owners of everything that can’t be bought.
8 “You’re blessed when you get your inside world—your mind and heart—put right. Then you can see God in the outside world.
9 “You’re blessed when you can show people how to cooperate instead of compete or fight. That’s when you discover who you really are, and your place in God’s family.
11-12 “Not only that—count yourselves blessed every time people put you down or throw you out or speak lies about you to discredit me. What it means is that the truth is too close for comfort and they are uncomfortable. You can be glad when that happens—give a cheer, even!—for though they don’t like it, I do! And all heaven applauds. And know that you are in good company. My prophets and witnesses have always gotten into this kind of trouble.
We believe in the Gospel of Grace and the finished work of Christ. How many times do you think Paul faced these same issues with the religious..
I am a little reluctant to post not being sure I can add anything to this but here goes. I have been a Christian for 31 years for over 20 of those years I have been a minister and am currently an associate pastor of a small church. I spent a large part of my early ministry in legalism very unfruitful and very unhappy. I moved slowly out of legalism with more and more of God’s love being revealed to me. I was a very good pharisee when I was in legalism and made myself and my family unhappy a lot of the time. God did bless me in many ways during that time but the undercurrent was bad. In the last few years I have been exposed to what I guess is called the Grace Movement and at first dived into it head on. I believe the revelation of God’s grace is of utmost importance. I give this as my humble opinion. The concern I have is that some of the fruit I see among the grace movement group is much like the fruit in the legalistic I saw before except it seems to be paraded for display instead of covered up (same sins just handled different.) Where I am at now is I am excited about God’s grace but see it as not just his covering my sin but his delivering power from sin. Galatians 2:20 Romans 6
Hi Bill, thanks for sharing. No one is excited about seeing grace abused but the sad fact is it happens and it has been happening since the Garden of Eden. Nevertheless, the cure now remains the same as the cure then and the cure in Romans 5 and Galatians – a greater revelation of Jesus.
Thank you for your response Paul this is difficult having a conversation 24 hours apart. I have purchased your book but have only read the first chapter. I quess what is giving me the most problem besides a large amount of scripture is the 3 close male friends i have had in the past all three from the grace side two were unfaithful and then left their wives and the third just left. I have had no one close in the grace group ( forgive my terms) displaying good lasting fruit.
HI BIll,My story is similar story.born again in the early 70s,baptisted in the holy spirit,in the charismatic movement,then in the disipleship [sheparding],raised a catholic, preached transcendental meditation and taoism in 12th grade catechism class.come to find out catholicism interfered with my relationship with the Lord, I have had a reconnection with my old disciple ship friends and teachers,all have come to discover more and more grace,some are gone, but anyway,more and more I am seeing that its the Lords ballgame,He saves you ,he keeps you, he maintains you,its all him. I have discovered, He is light years ahead of us,stay close to him,No one can take him from you,AND HE WILL NOT LET ANYONE TAKE YOU FROM HIM, be careful cause satan can eat your lunch and pop the bag,kinda like 2 steps forward and 1 step back.
GOD BLESS,REST IN HIM.
Earl- good word. Had to laugh at “satan will eat your lunch and pop the bag…”. That was funny! Keep up the positive. Yes the Grace walk “looks” suspect at times. We’ve been ubber trained in religion which appears “holy and clean living” however its whitewashed tombs (to quote our brother Jesus). Man He had rough language for those who maintained an appearance of right living… So yea, HANG ON for the ride of your life! That’s what I tell my newly born again young believers. The 20 something generation is eattin up the message of The Gospel of Good News. They’ve been waiting for something real!! God is SO good!
Signed- gina/ a woman freed from 30 YEARS of religious law abiding. Whoop!
Thank you gina, actually I stole that from A .Wommack,he has some good ones.
Bill; I’m sorry you have had those experiences with people who were close to you. Who can explain why they did what they did? I can’t. I have a similar timeline as you (when saved and how long in ministry, and coming fully into grace as well recently). The immediate fruit in our lives and the lives of those in ministry with us is that we’re all closer to God than ever before, happier and freer – and not one of us has any desire to dive into harmful behaviours now that we realize just how forgiven and free we are. Rather, it has given us a deeper appreciation and awe for what God has done. What choice do you really have? To go back under the law and legalism because what your 3 friends have done? The truth of grace is what it is and people have free will to receive it and honour God – or not. That cannot change the truth about grace. The fruit is there. Don’t panic, just rest and walk it out. You’ll see. 🙂
I do not plan on stepping back into legalism but i also do not plan on stepping into what some seem to be calling grace. I praise God for his work in my life and the true freedom he has given me. He is worthy of all praise. I had no power over sin but he has defeated all those that were against me at the cross. His nature being revealed for his glory by his power
bill, sometimes i think people who learn they are under grace forget about what the law taught them when they were under it… just because we are free to fail doesn’t mean we should go out and fail on purpose….
…clearly these are not walking in the Spirit – the Holy Spirit will never lead us to do something that is against the standards that the law revealed to us 😉
… like eating meat with yogurt and wearing mixed fiber clothing and eating shellfish and a whole slew of other things. Or women speaking in church or not wearing a head covering… to add Paul’s personal slant on things. (No disrespect implied… just making a point).
The law is meaningless with regard to walking in the Spirit.`
no offense taken…i’m not talking about being under the law, but about Gods holy perfection that was revealed through the law. i’m just saying that the Spirit is never going to lead a believer into an extra-marital relationship….rather, He empowers him to overcome fleshly desires and to not act upon them. Gods perfect standards will never change. The difference now is that we are in Christ, and His holy perfection is accounted to us -regardless of our actions. but we uphold the law by faith through the Holy Spirit’s power (rom 3:31)
Just remember that no one will be able to boast about anything in Heaven, even the act of us getting saved was an admission of our helplessness and inability without Jesus.
And if we are honest about the way the Holy Spirit moves in our lives…. at least in my life it has been like this: Hearing messages about “do more” and “if you don’t …… then…” and teachings about “losing salvation” – the result for me has ALWAYS been fear and worry, resulting in loss of supernatural peace and loss of movement of Holy Spirit.
BUT…. when I drink the messages of pure grace – “perfect forever”, “completely, fully forgiven” “God loves you with the same love He loves Jesus” “Jesus finished it ALL at the cross” then the Holy Spirit confirms His word in my inner man, by opening the rivers of living water to flow through me!
I have never felt the Holy Spirit confirm any teaching about law or condemnation in my heart, but I have felt Him confirm and affirm the teachings of pure grace, over and over again.
Woohooo! Jesus
euan,I see no other way to go,after 40 yrs,the revelation of how bankrupt in the spirit we are has pushed me to grace,j prince has a excellent teaching on this,this week,it is also on his web site this week as the broadcast of the week.
Hey Earl, thank you so much for the heads up about the Joseph Prince preach – I just watched it now: it truly blessed me big-time and has given me a HUGE smile for the rest of the day… in which I will allow myself to be carried on the shoulders of Jesus!
Who loves ya baby!……..dont take that personal,ya have to be old enough to remember KOJAK.
This says it clearly for me Euan the way it is. And another wooooohooooo from his grateful children here too.
Grace is the very nature of God. To say it must be balanced is to say it must be diminished. In Grace… lies an invitation to dive deep into relationship with God… to be fully enveloped in divine love. It is sensual… you can feel it. It fills you up. It enlivens. It excites. We get so caught up in it we don’t realize the effect it is having on the very core of who we are.
Tom that is the essence of the revelation of grace. All the riches of Christ are in His grace and all the promises of God. It is not possible to go back to the diminished half life of clinging to the cross and begging God in prayer once the full revelation of His amazing love has changed us, forever. In some ways there is too much to say to post on here, but in others its so simple you can sum it up in one word, Jesus. I am so in love with Him that he is more real to me than anything else. I walk above the earth. There is nothing that can separate me from him and his love. I can face anything life throws at me. His wisdom is amazing as his grace. I am excited and in awe of his person and presence. Forever…….
I feel confused. On the one hand, we are not supposed to live under law if we are under grace. On the other hand, we are not supposed to sin if we are under grace. But sin is missing the mark of God’s standard. And God’s standard is laid out in his laws. I am not talking about the Jewish law here, but God’s general law, like when Paul says in Galatians 5 that we aren’t to envy, hate, be drunk, be selfish, be impure, etc. To the extent that we don’t follow God’s standard (i.e., even if we miss it by a hair’s breadth) we are sinning. So if grace means we aren’t supposed to sin, grace must mean we are supposed to live under God’s law. Yet we are not under law…And yet, Paul makes it clear in Galatians 5 that if we don’t follow God’s standard, we will go to Hell. This takes us back to a works-oriented salvation. It is all confoundedly confusing!
I can see there is a lot of confusion here, Laura. First of all, if you read all of Galatians you will clearly see that Paul is NOT recommending we “follow God’s standard,” and that to do so is to fall from grace and make Christ of no effect. Second, grace does not mean “we’re not supposed to sin.” That’s like defining a healthy marriage as “not supposed to get divorced.” Not getting divorced is a by-product of a healthy marriage. Similarly, not sinning, is a by-product of living under grace. Just as I can have a healthy marriage without trying to not get divorced, so too can I walk under grace without worrying about not sinning.
Make sense?
The Galatians were law-conscious. The Colossians were rule-conscious. Both had to be steered back towards grace. In Galatians 5 Paul does not prescribe anything other than walking after the spirit – in other words, living by faith instead of sight. Walk after the spirit, says Paul, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. One thing follows the other.
Thanks for the explanation, Paul. I am reading all of this over and over, trying to let it sink in. It is so hard to undo 40+ years of fear and law!
Laura, I really appreciate your honest, genuine response. I hope Paul’s explanation has blessed you. There are a couple of things that came to my mind as I read yours’ and Paul’s comments. To expand a little on Paul’s example of marriage, all of us would prefer a spouse who is faithful because they love us and not just because it’s the right thing to do. Also, love is a more effective motivator. If we’re doing something because we have to, we eventually become annoyed with the one making us do it. As we walk in grace we fall more in love with Jesus, because even if we mess up, we just get more grace. That results in us loving Him more and empowers us to fulfill the law without trying; we’re just walking in love. The other thing I wanted to mention is when Paul (in the Bible) speaks about the law, he is talking about the ten commandments (since they are the only part of the law written and engraved on stones, 2 Cor 3:7). Grace and peace be multiplied to you! 🙂 (2 Pet 1:2) Blessings!
Thank you for the encouragement, Jim. I am trying to learn to walk in relationship. It is a whole new way of thinking for me. I think it will take time. I pray God will bring me along and do it in me. Grace and peace to you as well, pressed down to overflowing. You carry His message of peace.
Laura, you ask a great question: We are commanded to love, yet we are under Grace, yet to love is a command (law)! What’s up with that?!
Here’s how it plays out for the one who is in Christ: If we are in Christ and loving one another, all of the Laws that God cares about are automatically fulfilled (Rom. 13:8-10). The really cool part? Love is also a Fruit of the Spirit, which means that if we are being led by the Spirit, we are doing everything that God requires, against such things there is NO law (Gal. 5:22-23).
Do fruit-producing plants strive to produce fruit? No . . . they produce fruit as long as they are attached to the vine/tree/plant – fruit is the by-product of LIFE. If you are alive in Christ and abiding in Him, allowing His Holy Spirit to live through you, love is an unavoidable by-product and fulfills the law =o).
It’s a ridiculously unfair in our favor win-win deal.
That is Grace.
Very thought-provoking, JGIG, thanks for taking the time to write this out. The analogy with the fruit is compelling. I am trying to think of things in a new way. For example, I am trying to think of God in terms of the characteristics described in Galatians 5 (fruit of the Spirit). If that is who he is, then as he fills us, we will be like that too. It is so hard to be still to be filled. I am used to striving and struggling and trying to earn my keep.
the only thing I would add jgig and laura is,we love him with his love,so even the love is provided.[GOD IS LOVE][WE LOVE BECAUSE HE LOVED US FIRST.
Amen, Earl. Thank you for that.
i heard a really good example in one of joseph prince’s sermons that might be helpful… when the first half of the golden gate bridge was being built, 23 workers fell to their deaths…. so before they started on the second half of the bridge, they spent a lot of money to design and place a safety net under the new construction. lo and behold, this time only 10 workers fell, but not one of them died… and the second half of the bridge was built faster and was of better quality and craftsmanship than the first half!
when we were under the law, we were fearful of making mistakes and “fell” more often… but when we walk in faith and follow the Spirit, we are trusting in Christ’s finished work… we are made secure and can then relax from our efforts to keep ourselves from “falling”… as a result we naturally “perform” better and yield high quality “fruit”. 😉
Wow, that is helpful, Jennie, very much so. I have incorporated it into my points to meditate on. It is hard to learn to think like this when I am so used to theologies that were either graceless or (even worse) mixed. The funny thing is that right before I read your reply, God had placed on my heart the words ‘grace is an under-girding.’ Your post provides a picture for the words. Thanks for taking the time to share it with me.
Amazing insight of comparison, trying to not get divorced. Paul, I wished all could see Jesus offering His sacrifice to God on the alter on behalf of all men. Then, to imagine some other worshipper daring to approach and lay their sacrifice on the same alter alongside the sacrifice of Jesus to win, or keep, God’s favor. How they can be so bold as if to say Jesus is not enough. I want to add my soiled underwear on the alter of sacrifice, alongside Christ’s offer of His own life’s blood. You keep up your good work because it is desperately needed. I know God will not forget the suffering you endure to warn people of the spiritual train wreck just over the hilltop.
Paul and Dr Brown, Perhaps I am missing the point. (I just recently came across this site, BTW, thank you Lord!) Isn’t your “disagreement” really a matter of the chicken and the egg? Grace is for all mankind. We cannot earn it. We do not deserve it. Alas, there it is. We accept it, and we are saved. Yet, we can choose to be grateful in our salvation, or ungrateful. If we are grateful we proclaim the Gospel and it transforms our lives. If we are ungrateful then we live our lives chaffing under what we perceive to be a millstone around our neck. Ungrateful, we perceive that in exchange for our salvation, we must perform a set of tasks, lest we be thrown back into the pile of discarded wheat.
I suppose what I am asking is this. Isn’t it possible that “the works” which Dr Brown speaks of are merely the same as what I perceive Paul is calling for, which is to live our lives as Children of God, free from the burden. We may fall short, but we are desirous by the Spirit to live a changed life?
I’m just amazed at how we think we know so much about such things and know how wrong everyone else is. 1 Corinthians 8: 2-3 “Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God.” Kinda humbling to our wisdom and understanding, huh? Colossians 4:6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.
I’m really searching for understanding on this subject and many of the posts here come across as spiteful to other believers. Might as well be arguing about what color of carpet to put in the church.
I think the Apostle John sums it up nicely in this verse: [speaking to believers in Jesus] “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world”.
1 John 2: 1-2
Can someone answer a few questions I have?…
Ben, please limit comments to the post being discussed, as per E2R’s Comment Policy. For different ways to get questions answered, see this post.
Great discussion going on here, I have experienced both sides. All I have to say is that those who think that ‘hyper Grace’ is a bad thing have more confidence in their flesh than in their born again spirits……Grace speaks to our spirits and we need more of it everyday since it is the fulness of Jesus, his very essence which leads to a lifestyle where sin has no dominion over us……law based preaching which fleshly people call balance is actually mixture is only attractive to the flesh and produces temporary results and a false kind of holiness. Let us not be like the children of Israel who grieved God because they did not know his ways. It is clear in Psalms that his ways are the ways of Grace. The more we feed on his Grace the more we are transformed. forever #TeamGrace
Thank you for the post, Paul, and thank you Dr. Brown for posting your replies. I used to attend your church in NC. You probably don’t remember me. Irrespective of my disagreement with your views on grace Dr. Brown, I can wholeheartedly tell you that your book series Answering Jewish Objections strengthened my faith greatly years ago. I needed Christian Apologetics (Existence of God) and subsequently Jewish Apologetics (Messiahship of Yeshua) to be initially persuaded to come to church again. For that, I’m so grateful to men of God like Ravi Zacharias and you Dr. Brown. I don’t know the scriptures as well as you or Paul. But for me, it was what you call “hyper grace” that started changing me from inside out. It was grace that made the verse “there is no fear in perfect love” truly ring true in my life. It was the radical grace that helped me started looking at the world with love and compassion. It was the super hyper grace that truly helped me love the sinners without loving the sin. This is the case to my some of my close friends as well. We are amazed at how radical grace can so radically change our lives. I am confident and hopeful that God will make all these conflicts and disagreements in the body of Christ for good. I believe that some amazing things are happening in His Church. Much blessings you Paul and Dr. Brown, Abba’s beloved.
This article is unbelievable. In response to this paragraph:
Dr. Brown surely knows this for the word “love” appears 13 times in his short article. But where Dr. Brown and many Christians get confused, is what we must do in response. Evidently, Dr. Brown thinks we must turn from sin. (The word “sin” appears 14 times in his article.) But this is old-covenant thinking. It is selling the love of God for the price of a little old fashioned repentance. It is not the gospel of unmerited grace.
Paragraphs like that one convince me that we are not on the brink of, but are already in the apostasy of the church. Do we disrespect and devalue the blood of Jesus Christ so much that we think turning away from “sin,” i.e. pornography, homosexuality (I have friends in the faith who have painstakingly fought for freedom from this), covetousness, etc. is “a little old fashioned repentance?” Is God some kind of circus clown that just laughs at whatever we do because we’re his children, as long as we’re at the carnival? Please, dear brothers and sisters in Christ, do not believe this kind of heretical, disgraceful teaching. It is far more dangerous than we’ll know in this life. God is holy and He is as much in the business of sanctifying His people as he was 2,000 years ago when the apostle Paul spent so much time writing to the churches about turning from SIN, if for no other reason than it brings DISGRACE upon the NAME OF GOD!
I am so disheartened that people would even think there is a debate in regards to this topic. How did we ever reach this place in Christendom? Thank God for watchmen in the church like Dr. Brown.
You have framed the issue as “those guys aren’t against sin” which is a straw man. It’s not actually what anyone here is saying. The point we’re trying to make is grace has no price tags. Turning from sin is not something you do to get love and grace because if you did it wouldn’t be love or grace.
If you are interested in what those in the so-called grace camp have to say about repentance, read this.