Can You Lose Your Salvation?
Can you lose your salvation and become unsaved?
When I first began writing about the gospel of grace few people asked this question. It was too contentious, too uncertain, too hard.
So one summer I set out to read every single scripture on the subject. Turns out there are about 300. About half of them say you can’t lose your salvation, while the other half seem to suggest you can.
At first glance, these two groups of scriptures seem to be in conflict with one another. One group is full of God’s unconditional promises; the other is full of conditional statements.
But when I read these scriptures through Jesus-glasses, I found not one scripture that said you can lose your salvation. Although there are bad consequences to straying or falling from grace, having your Father unchild you is not one of them.
(If this is news to you, I recommend reading this list of the top 12 promises regarding your eternal security.)
Can you lose your salvation? No. Not a chance. God’s Word is crystal clear.
So why do people worry that they can?
They worry because they don’t know what makes the new covenant new. They confuse the “we wills” of the old covenant with the “he wills” of the new. They believe that Jesus saves them, but they don’t know that Jesus also keeps them. They worry they can undo what they never wrought in the first place. They fear they can compel God to do what he said he wouldn’t.
There will always be some who say you may be lost at the end. (I call them insecurity preachers because their anxious and fear-filled messages are designed to dislodge you from your secure position.) But those who say such things make one of two bad assumptions:
Bad assumption #1: Salvation starts later (you’re not saved yet)
Yet the Bible says those in Christ have been made new. New life is now, not tomorrow. Sure, we are waiting for the redemption of bodies, when that which is perishable puts on immortality. But you are not your body and in Christ you are saved now. Today is the day of salvation.
Bad assumption #2: Salvation is not forever (you can lose it)
Is it possible to lose the gift of salvation? The insecurity preachers say yes. “Your salvation is temporary, on probation.” But that’s not what the Bible says.
And having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him (Heb 5:9)
If you are saved now, you are saved eternally. Jesus doesn’t do partial salvations or temporary salvations or trial salvations. He only authors eternal salvations.
Incidentally, the original word for eternal is sometimes translated as forever or everlasting. Your eternal salvation is forever and everlasting.
Capiche?
You are saved forever and ever and ever!
Because Jesus’ blood obtained an eternal redemption (Heb 9:12), you have an eternal inheritance (Heb 9:15), guaranteed by an eternal covenant (Heb 13:20), resulting in eternal life (John 3:16) and a welcome into the eternal kingdom (2 Pet 1:11) by the eternal God (Rom 16:26).
Which is why the eternal gospel (Rev 14:6) gives us eternal comfort (2 Thess 2:16).
There are hundreds of scriptures proving your salvation is secure, but I will leave you with just one:
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)
Those who preach insecurity make one of two assumptions, and Jesus demolishes both of them here. “He has crossed over from death to life.” There goes assumption #1. New life is not something you experience in the sweet by and by, but something to enjoy today.
“Whoever hears and believes has eternal life and will not be condemned.” And there goes assumption #2. If you believe, you will never be condemned. One with the Lord you simply cannot lose your salvation.
“But what if I stop believing?” You will no longer enjoy eternal life, but you won’t lose eternal life. If you could lose it, it wouldn’t be eternal, would it?
I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)
Your salvation is not something to wonder or worry about. John writes, and so do I, so that you may know with certainty that, in Christ, you have eternal life.
___________
More articles about your eternal security.
Sign up to our free email list and we’ll notify you about new articles as soon they come out.
Escape to Reality 
This is a good post.
Thank you.
Wow! What can I say? Brother Paul, you have no idea the joy that wells up my heart right now just reading this article of yours. Thank you very much for the clarification. But here is my question to you. Did Judas Iscariot have eternal life before he sold the Lord away? And after everything he did to the Lord, would he still have eternal life in God’s kingdom? Sorry if my questions sound silly.
Just as going to church doesn’t make you a Christian, none of the things Judas did suggest he was born again. He was not filled with the Spirit. He regularly stole from the Lord (John 12:6). He betrayed the Lord delivering him over to his enemies. All the evidence suggests Judas was far from saved.
And Judas was still “In Adam” (as was everyone before Calvary.) He obviously did not walk by faith in Jesus.
And just to anticipate objections to your great article, what do you say to the seeming condition on the end of “And having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him” (Heb 5:9) How “obedient” does one have to be to qualify?
To obey is to hearken, to use KJV-ese. There are two kinds of people in the world; those who hearken to Jesus and respond in faith and those who don’t. Now here’s a question for you. The rest of that passage says “Jesus learned obedience and was made perfect.” In what sense was Jesus imperfect?
Brilliant as always, Paul
Hi Paul. I wholeheartedly agree that you cannot sin your salvation away, Jesus dealt with the sin issue for believers and unbelievers full stop! We know, no one will go to hell for their individual sins, but rather for rejecting the payment (Jesus atonement).
I hope you are right it is impossible for those who once believed to lose their salvation, as I had a good few friends in the past have powerful encounters with Jesus who sadly no longer believe. I have not given up hope for them.
It is the rejection of Jesus by those who once believed, thinking on some scriptures, I am still not entirely sure about.
If we can lose our salvation through sinning as some proclaim, there is no hope for any of us! Including those preachers who proclaim that message!
Comforting words, thank you Paul. Some still say a Christian can still lose their salvation if they speak contrary to what the Word of God says about them, quoting the scripture which says; ” By your words you shall be justified and by your words you shall be condemned”, for example when a Christian says; ” I am not sure if I am saved or not” and then dies after that confession, it is said that one has nullified his or her salvation, then I am wondering who does the saving is it my confession or is it Jesus, but I know it is Jesus, He is the One who brought me to the Father.
Great article.
Read 1 Cor.10 verse 1 to 12
Hebrews 3 verses 12-12
John 15 Abide in Him, that is a command, if you willfully do n’t, you will be cut off as a withered branch.
In a covenant are two parties: Jesus Christ with His overwelming Sacrafice on the Cross and the Ressurrection and the human being. God will hold His Covenant, but we can choose for sin again,after receiving Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, look at Roman 6 vers 1 and 2.
Hebrews 10 Verse 26, here writes the apostle to believers!!!!
In Revalation many times is spoken about overcome the devil and sin in the power of His Spirit, Jesus Christ.
Judas was elected and chosen as one of the disciples, but by unbelief and the greed of money caused him to die eternal, after Jesus allowed Satan to go into Judas…
Lay down sin and walk the race of salvation Hebr. 12 verse 1
Revelation 3 verse 16, Jesus spits this lukewarm christians out lf his mouth if they do not repent!
Peter, none of those passages threatens your eternal redemption. If you would like to no more, you can find articles on each scripture in the Archives > Scripture Index.
I’ve met plenty of people that think salvation can be lost. Even had a pastor visit my house and try to help me understand that I can lose my salvation by explaining it’s like hanging from an airplane… If I don’t hang on and let go, then I will fall. I was a babe in Christ at the time, but even then, I was able to tell him, “No, that’s wrong”. I couldn’t explain to him why it was wrong very well back then, but I knew to reject it. People who think salvation can be lost are simply not working with a revelation of what Jesus accomplished and who He is. We have to recognize it was our spirit man (not our flesh) that died on the cross with Christ, was buried with Christ, and HAS BEEN resurrected with Christ. Faith is what allows that Eternal Kingdom reality to be lived out in this kingdom. Our union with Christ is not obtained or retained on the level of achieving. The New Covenant takes it to a new level… believing. Your spirit fusion with Christ can affect your flesh walk and does as we abide, but your flesh walk cannot affect your spirit fusion with Christ. Amen! He’s so amazing!
Awesome word bro!
Well written article demonstrating that God has saved us forever and Jesus will never let anything snatch us out of His hand.
However there is a catch, for even though apostle Paul says “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet NOW hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight:” … here comes the condition…” IF YOU CONTINUE in the faith grounded and settled, and BE NOT MOVED AWAY from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;” (Col 1:21-23) So clearly we have the responsability to not let go of this gospel of grace. Jesus will never let go of us but we have the power to turn away from Him and so lose our salvation. The good news is that even if we do we can come back if we repent.
That scripture has often been used to frighten God’s children, but it does NOT mean God might unchild you.
Is that what you think I’m doing with that scripture?
The thought that we are responsible for our salvation and that if we’re not careful to continue in the faith (or keep short accounts, confess and do a bunch of other maintenance activities) we can lose it, is frightening to some. It certainly used to trouble me.
There is this idea that if we preach the gospel like this it will cause people to not mind being “naughty”, I used to feel this way myself. Then my life fell apart and the only way out of the mess was a revelation of His grace. I am now less naughty than I have ever been and I don’t even have to try to stop being naughty. I just want to be with Him and know Him, the naughtiness drops away because I am no longer holding on to the ropes that were attached to it. Another analogy of trying to be good in our own strength could be like trying to juggle clubs that are on fire, but we just keep getting burnt. It is so much better to stop juggling good and evil in our independent moral agency and just leave that flaming circus altogether.
One of the unfortunate consequences of preaching law, is we don’t learn the true consequences of sin. We think of sin as merely breaking the rules. So when we learn we are no longer under law but grace, we falsely conclude sin has no consequences then go out and destroy ourselves. Sinning is a bit like sticking your fork in the socket. Yes, God will still love you if you do it. Doesn’t mean you should.
“One of the unfortunate consequences of preaching law, is we don’t learn the true consequences of sin.”
Exactly right. We tell ourselves that these rules are objective, but in reality we embrace them as arbitrary commands and develop a “do it or else” mentality. This has a devastating effect on how we view the nature and character of God, we make Him out to be a hard task master and tell ourselves “oh well, He is God, He is sovereign so He can demand whatever He want’s”. This not only makes a genuine relationship with Him almost impossible, it also causes us to be overly harsh with other people as well. We reflect and project a false image of God onto others, we project our own internal frustration and strife, we can only give what we have inside us.
God is not arbitrary in any sense, everything He does has meaning and purpose, God doesn’t want us to stop sinning “because thems the rules” He wants us to be free of sin because it is objectively harmful and He hates what it does to us.
So much talk about our salvation in Christ makes it sound like something you get from the grocery store and have or don’t have. You can keep it or through it away. You can forget where you put it like your glasses or keys. Salvation is YOU!!! It is you – upgraded! It’s you – with Jesus installed! It’s you – recreated! It’s you – smothered, submerged, and completely surrounded by and indwelt by and joined to Christ Jesus! If we must think of it as an “it”… IT’S not going anywhere.
Thx Jason. God bless you.
Yeessss!!!!!
Very well said, Sorin. That was just my thought spoken out by you. Eph. 4:17-32 have settled it nicely for us. Every Christian should read and meditate on those verses of the Scripture. God bless everyone.
God is our power source, like the electric company. The power is sent to our homes and it is up to us to use it by flipping a switch on. If we don’t use the power we have it is not the electric companies fault, nor is it God’s, it is our own. Maybe we don’t know how to switch it on but just as a house has blue prints describing functions within the home so the Bible is our spiritual blueprint in how to access the power God has given us.
Sorin- We need to be very careful when we take the track of salvation can be lost or given up. Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if it were possible for someone to they cannot be renewed to repentance as Jesus only died one time and they already used up that one time offering. Now I tend to read the passage with an emphasis on the “if”. If it were possible then your first time losing it or giving it back is a forever thing. But as it is not an isolated passage and many other scripture reaffirm the eternal forever-ness of salvation.
It just came over me that if you give something to someone you can’t change your mind later and say you want it back, it belongs to someone else at that point.e A slave cannot tell their master they quit, it’s not an option. Our choice is to be a slave of righteousness or a slave to sin, there is no in betweens.
Brother Ellis!
I read your article and enjoyed it. God bless you for your courage in emphasizing our eternal security in Christ. I was a Catholic priest for 7 years until God called me out through the Gospel of Grace. I have a question (follow-up) about one thing you said, and I’d appreciate your response. You said:
““But what if I stop believing?” You will no longer enjoy eternal life, but you won’t lose eternal life. If you could lose it, it wouldn’t be eternal, would it?” Then, you quoted 1 John 5:13 to support it.
What caught my attention is that John says he is writing to “you who believe in the name of the Son of God.” These are the people – in John’s mind – who have eternal life, not those who have stopped believing. I’m not sure if John would say to those who have stopped believing that they have eternal life. Perhaps, those who stopped believing are giving us proof that they never truly believed in Jesus in the first place. I’m thinking of Scriptures like Heb 11:6; 1 John 2:18-27; 5:4-5.
Thank you in advance for your response.
Steve
Greetings Steve, I don’t think we can tell by a person’s behavior if they have truly believed. It is possible for someone to believe, become one with Jesus, and eventually return to their previous lifestyle. Jesus will never leave them or forsake them. It is also possible to think you believed in Jesus, but actually believed in a denomination, a “pure” lifestyle, or anything that distracts from Jesus Himself. If we have ever personally accepted Jesus, we are eternally one with Him and have become a new and different creation than we were before.
Hello LJP!
Thank your for your response!
Many people, including myself don’t really understand becoming a new creature in Christ. It is obviously not our body that changes, though Pastor Prince jokenly says we get better looking, nor is it our soul that changes but it is our spirit that changes. Our spirit becomes like that of Jesus Christ which is why…we are as he is, in this world. We become, in spirit, what He says we are, we have what he says we have and so on. We learn what we are by feeding our spirit with God’s word just as we feed our body with food. This is how we learn to manifest what we have already been given. It’s not a matter of asking God, for example, for healing because we already have it, it’s a matter of recieving. The power company supplies your home with power but the lights won’t come on unless you flip the switch. The source is always there.
You’re welcome, Steve.
Hi John,
We prosper as our soul prospers. Or another way I would say it is we manifest His life as we abide in Him. Our soul can experience His life through the oneness we have with Jesus. The new creation is Christ in me. When a seed and egg come together, something new and different is created – a human being. When you and Jesus came together you became a new creation. There is a “fuller” manifestation yet to come when we receive a resurrected, incorruptible body as Jesus did when He was resurrected. Blessings to you both.
John & LJP – love your comments on spirit, soul, and body. There is so much to be said about this and It has unlocked many scriptures for me that I couldn’t discern for years until I had the revelation of these things. (By the way, I think the TRUTH is in us, not the bible. The bible only reflects back to us what has been revealed by the Holy Spirit. Christ is in us. Truth is in us. As His spirit provides revelation to our minds, then we see it in the bible. So, the bible is not the source. The Word of God is in us. The bible is the mirror that reflects the truth back to us. The Point of saying all that is – if it’s not a revelation in your mind, you won’t see it in the bible. We will see and hear, but not perceive.) Indeed, our spirit has been saved now and an incorruptible body is our future. Jesus truly has defeated this world in every way for us. And we must learn to turn our soul toward our spirit, which is joined to Christ, and live from Him as our source of life. That’s what abiding and living by faith is all about. I would add to this conversation: that I believe in Adam’s original humanity he was far more attune and aware of the spiritual realm. Perhaps he could see what is unseen to us. Adam “died” and was banned from the Garden, but we know his death was the death of his spirit as he lived many more years physically. In our salvation, Jesus has fixed this and brought our spirit back to life with HIS Resurrection Life. “It is not I who lives, but Christ who lives in me”. His spirit would have to be defeated somehow for me to lose my salvation. Is that going to happen?…ummm, NO. (I’m dancing on the inside!)
Agreed, Jason, thanks for your comments. Although I’m honestly not as sure about how well Adam could see. Eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and ignoring the words of his Father seem to indicate that he had some level of blindness.
God is perfect love;He is perfect Holiness; and He never violates our free will. We are saved when we trust in what Jesus did..A person can abandon that trust and no longer be saved.
Then salvation is not eternal. The good news is Jesus remains faithful even when we are not. “He cannot disown himself.”
Paul D Feldhuhn – As you said, “We are saved when we trust in what Jesus did.” Amen! That’s the truth! Saved means rescued, cured, freed, released, reclaimed, regenerated! Just take that in and let it simmer in the ol’ noggin. Go look in the mirror… can you somehow be unborn? You are here, and you can’t undo that. Likewise, those who belong to Christ are born again of the Spirit. That can be ignored, but it can’t be undone.
This is definitely — no, absolutely — the voice of Father God. Much appreciated in the midst of a bunch of noise saying “you can lose your salvation; stop sinning”.
Hallelujah! Glory to God! I received Christ as my personal saviour as a young lad and for several days the world was so full of glory, hope, peace etc. Well meaning shepherds started teaching grace and law and I have had trouble understanding the grace of God ever since. I taught others what I was taught while struggling with eternal salvation, and it has robbed me of peace for some 50 years. Since this epiphany my whole world has had a glorious resurgence and peace rules in my heart. Streams are flowing in the desert and the same glow of salvation is on my face. There is a renewed hunger for the word and I must unlearn so many things I thought I knew. I thank God for your ministry and am sharing the good news with all who will listen as the Spirit leads me. God bless you.
That’s wonderful, Harold. Thank you for sharing.
Thanks Paul.
Paul – FYI, the link to “forgive literally means to send away” in the 6-20-12 post ‘Is Forgiveness Something God Does or Gives?’ points to the MF Norwegian School of Theology. I hope they were at least paying you for those clicks! LOL Regards, Eddie P.S. – I didn’t find another way to contact you about this other than via reply to this post.
Thanks Eddie. Unfortunately there will be a few of those dud links around. They originally went to an online Vines Dictionary, but that resource seems to have been removed. I have removed the link.
I just wanted to ask you something Paul. I forgot I had read on online introduction to Andrew Wommack’s book about Stop asking for what you already have. I’m guilty of this myself by asking for something and trying to believe for it vs. knowing I already have it and fighting to receive it. Are you familiar with Andrew and his book? What say ye on his approach? He claims that he has seen a great difference in healings at his church for the better upon teaching this.
You can find my review of that book in the Resources > Book Reviews page.
Just throwing it out there John C something that grabbed my thinking ( and perhaps Andrew Wommacks book speaks the same) regarding your words ‘fighting to receive it”. You know in Proverbs we are told to guard our heart I am learning their can be junk in my heart ( when I knowingly or unknowingly did not stand on guard with Truth……for example casting down vain imaginations) and these negative heart issues will over rule what we think we are understanding and operating in. The example that had been given was a person who as a child heard and saw actions which the child interpreted and identified as ‘ I don’t deserve to be loved ‘ in which the child then grew up destroying every relationship geared towards loving him. That now grown adult had to choose to remove the faulty heart belief in order to receive love.
This is an easy one. Salvation is life – His life. When we are saved, we died, were buried, and raised as a new creation and are now in His Body. We no longer live, but Christ is our life. Jesus does not lose, forfeit, cut-off, reject, or abandon a member of His Body. We are one spirit with Him. Jesus cannot be ripped apart again.
God’s Grace is greater than religion. Eternal security is the highest expression of Grace in the life of a believer. Great article. Once we are saved we are always saved.
Where are the curious: Can we ask, without it being thought of as – don’t ask? “Salvation” – from what…? Could it be, we are saved to & for the Master… and not from Gehenna [Hell]? Didn’t the Master come to save the Lost? What does it mean to be lost?
We were always told you could lose your salvation. It is hard to believe, you can get saved go back to your old ways die and go to heaven. God won’t turn his back on you, but you can turn your back on him. Why would you be able to go to heaven when you leave him?
Kay- God remains faithful even when we do not. 2 Timothy 2:12
Salvation is not like joining a club where we can either choose to leave or get kicked out for not doing things right. Here are some of the things that happen to you when you first come to Jesus in faith- You are bought from sin slavery, your old man gets crucified with Jesus and dies, we are raised up new creations, our body of sins is cut off from us like a circumcision, all of our sin is under the blood, we are adopted with God as our father, our old hearts of stone are taken out and we receive new living hearts and the Holy Spirit seals us with a mark. In order for us to become unsaved God would have to do some intense things that are not once mentioned in scripture. The biggest is that He would have to kill off our new creation and living heart, resurrect our old man and put our heart of stone back into us. Not once is anything like that even hinted at in scripture.
Kay – That’s a good question! We can turn & walk back into the world – is that not what sin in the flesh will always be in every person – including those called & known by Yahshuah (Machyiach)? Is being adopted by Yahuah (Elohim); sealed with Rauch Kodesh not a sure thing?
Do you have those two lists of scriptures, one supporting eternal security, one supporting losing salvation, on line? I’d like to see it and compare.
Click the links in the post and you will see them.
Thank you for this article. I’m one of those who is sort of insecure about salvation but I believe I am faithful to Jesus. I still disappoint Him and myself with struggles with sin. But one of my favorite statements of Jesus is “ ANY ONE who comes to me in no way will I turn away. In this insane world I’m so glad for Him.
Thanks Drew. Here’s another great promise for you: “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me… No one will snatch them out of my hand” (John 10:27-28). No one means no one.
What if someone didn’t want their salvation or forfeited it? Can someone give it back?
Can you give back your DNA? Can you give back your new heart? Can you give back the Holy Spirit (who Jesus said would be with you forever)?
Thank you!
Hmmmm…….truthfully I have never studied this. But it seems like a person can somehow “undo” their salvation…like the verse in 1 Corinthians 5:5 (maybe someone already commented on that verse this is a long thread lol…lots of reactions on this subject). Can I give back the Holy Spirit who Jesus said would be with you forever? Well for myself I surely do not worry about it as I am a happy camper in Jesus….but if someone decides to renounce their heart commitment for real to Jesus ( and only Jesus would know what for real is) and this person decides to throw Him away ( for surely Jesus would never throw us away) however we supernaturally became new…..well maybe , maybe we somehow become supernaturally ‘unnew’?
Who, after truly knowing Him, in their right mind would want to give back their salvation? I used to ask the same question but i now see that’s confusion from the enemy. God bless bro! Be at peace the Lord has you in His hands and will never let you go!.
What does apostle Paul mean in Romans 2:16 about the day when God will judge……?
I would appreciate your interpretation of that and other scriptures about coming judgement. If all sins were judged at the cross and I believe they were, what do these judgment scriptures refer to?
Kindly,gp
Judgment Day, when all will be judged by their response to Jesus. Please check out the Archives > Subject Index > Judgment for more.
So what do you do with Hebrews 6:4_6?
Please check out the Archives > Scripture Index.
Can a christian lose his salvation? Answer with a question: Can God the Father lose one of His own kids?
That’s a really good way of putting it and accurate. Good job.
A great article, Paul, thank you! I searched your archives, but 1 Jn 2:19 isn’t there. This verse seems to negate the fact that one is still born again, even if they stop believing. “They had to go out from us to show that they were never of us.” What is the meaning of this verse?
1 John 2:19 is speaking of those who have an antichrist spirit (see verse 18). Such a person denies that Jesus is Lord (see verse 22) and therefore is not a believer.
It kind of explains itself. They went out to show they were never of us. Never saved in the first place. If they had been saved they would have once been a part of them but now were no longer.
Good stuff, bother.
Obvious you mentioned there were 100s of confirming ones. Another great one is Rom 11, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Keep up the fight. Keep holding to the finished work of Christ.
Brother Larry
Great article and contributions! Psalm 89:14 Righteous and justice are the foundation of Your throne. There are over 100 things that happened at the point of salvation, By God, and many are now in the past tense as Paul pointed out in John 5:24, Past from death into Life! 1 Cor. 6:11 washed, sanctified, justified. When Adam and Eve fell God levied the Judgement that He told them “Surely you will die”. It was a spiritual death and they had to leave the garden.They could NEVER return to their state of perfection as before (even if they never sinned again) because the judgment was made!!! When a person receives Jesus as their Savior through believing, a Judgement is made by God that can never be undone because Jesus paid it all and you are placed and accepted IN HIM. Col. 1:13 and Ephesians 1:6,7. Therefore God perfectly justifies openly before all (Romans 5:1,2 – Deut. 4:32) for everyone who have become His Children. 1Peter 1:23 -Those who have been born again with an incorruptible Seed through the Word of God forever! (Can NOT be corrupted and how long?) Galatians 2:20 – I have been crucified with Christ… Do you think Christ can ever be UNcrucified? Col. 2:11 – Because we are placed IN HIM we receive the New Creation and our flesh has a spiritual circumcision. Tell me again, how does circumcision get put back on? Impossible!
Yaaaaahhhh duuudeeee!!!!! Hallelujah!
I know a lady who seemed genuinely saved years ago (and I truly believed she was), but now she denounces Christianity, doesn’t believe in the Resusrrection of Christ, and doesn’t want to be saved if there’s such a thing.
Still a new creation? Or was her newness undone?
Only her and the lord knows. If she ever placed her faith in Christ she’s a new creation which cannot be undone. She may have had a bad experience with a church organization or pushed herself away by trying to live the Christian life and gave up. I know from personal experience that if a believer goes off and lives in the world and lives like the world they always come back because they don’t feel right. Nothing brings a believer enjoyment and fulfillment like Christ does. They may go live and indulge in the flesh but their reborn again spirit can never be tainted.
Most Christians don’t even know they’re saved. They believe for a moment that Christ paid for their sins and instead of living in that freedom of the spirit they go back and live under the law. This very well might happen to that lady and she gave up because of condemnation so ended up rejecting the very system of her belief so that condemnation may go away.
Pray for her bro.
It depends. Is denouncing a special kind of sin that is not covered by the blood of Jesus? Is this kind of sin omitted from the blood offering in the heavenly temple?(Hebrews 9:24-26)
Does her current lack of faith give her the power to force Jesus to cancel her eternal redemption, sell her back into sin slavery, kill off her new creation and new heart and then make God resurrect her old man to put it and her old stone heart back into her?
Yes possible. Although I don’t believe God does the ‘resurrect old man and put her old stone heart back to her”…..I believe she does through her choice of unbelief.
So we have the power to bring back to life that which God killed off? Unbelief brings dead things back to life? I’m sorry but nothing in scripture holds that stance.
I read a lady’s testimony of how she turned from an intimate relationship with the Lord (she was deceived by the devil into thinking she was condemned) and pretty much acted like an enemy of God, opposing His people, practicing witch craft, ECT. Years later she had a Holy Spirit encounter and though she went through some trials the Lord restored her. We sometimes only see a small part of someone’s life but the Lord sees all. “He will confirm you to the end, that you will be blameless in the day of the Lord. He who calls you into fellowship with His son, Jesus Christ our Lord is faithful.”
Hello everyone: Hebrews 6 verses 1-6 feal with this subject. IF a person is able to become UNSAVED, then they would need someone else to save them with a different type of sacrifice. Messiah had gone to the cross once, and shed His blood ONCE for the forgiveness of ALL of the sins of ALL of mankind.
A person is not comdemned for sin but for UNBELIEF , John 3 verses 15 -18.
Hello! Great post on salvation!
I saw a comment earlier about Judas and I’d like to add. Growing up in the extreme the legalistic family and then coming into Grace how is ask several questions about Judas Iscariot so I went off and studied about it and my conclusion Judas was never saved. In fact Jesus’s own words were:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? -John 6:70-
U can also find out that judas never believed Jesus was tee messiah. While the other 11 called Jesus master or rabbi he (judas) called him teacher.
Jesus also said:
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Matthew 26:24 KJV
And:
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:12 KJV
Now here is the most crucial part.
Judas repented of the sin but he didn’t believe in Christ for the payment of that sin instead he hung himself and paid for it himself! If he would have waited just a few hours he possibly could have ran into one of the disciples and they would explain to him what happened. Later on in luke (after the ressurection when jesus taught them and their spiritual eyes were opened =).
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Matthew 27:3-5
Unfortunately this is what religion does do us or says to do “repent of your sins and you will be forgiven!” Judas did this very thing. Will scripture simply says believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved!
Do not run to the law to make up for the wrong you do run to Jesus friend.
❤
Thanks bro Brandon for more elaboration on my question.
…..bbbbut I still sin Bro. Paul!!
: )
So do I, Austin. Believe it or not, so does everyone! That’s not because we are all horrible people. It’s because all it takes to sin is to step out of “living by the spirit”. Take a look at Galatians 5: 13-26. There will always be things in life that pull on us to step out of “abiding in Him” and into our coping abilities. Weather it is resorting to anger, feeding addictions, being aggressive to get what we want, bullying others with our superiority (in our own minds that is), just being selfish, or on and on we could go. Remember Jesus sleeping on the boat when the storm was raging. He lived, marching to the beat of a different drum – and now that He lives in us, we can live according to that same drum. His connection to the Father is now our connection to the Father, Austin. All we have to do is learn to hear the music of the Fathers love and grace, and sway to that tune. As we do, the next thing you know, sinning just falls away and you don’t even miss it. Try not to focus on when you sin, but rather focus on what God is teaching you and look for ways to apply it in your life. Do that, and I bet the sinning will start to be challenged by a new you.
Thank you, Paul, for providing this platform. E2R is awesome!
Jason B. Good word! It really takes this communion with the Holy Spirit through the Word to even have a clue about sins of ‘omission’ or the tongue or even ‘good’ things done apart from faith. As you mentioned, Jesus didn’t come to give us a new set of rules, He came to give us the relationship He has with the Father. John 17:22,23
Knowing that a person unable to get free from an addiction can struggle with the issue of eternal security, I wanted to add a comment on addictions. By addiction, I mean you want to stop, but you can’t (stuck in Romans 7:14-15… your own behavior baffles you). Three points here: you are not your sin, your willpower is not the answer, and our only hope of true victory and freedom is to take Jesus at His word and labor to rest in Him. (1) You are not an alcoholic, porn addict, food junky, gambler, drug addict, etc. These are behaviors that we get enslaved to, but you are not your behavior. You must make that separation to be able to live from your new identity in Christ. It would be natural for an alcoholic to drink, but unnatural for a clean, holy, spotless child of God to drink. And that is who you are. Knowing your identity is powerful! (2) These addictive behaviors have been produced on purpose in us. There is much more at play with addictions than someone’s willpower. Society is manipulated and marketed to on levels that are very, very dark and sinister. “They” know how our flesh ticks and how to get us hooked. Our willpower is simply no match for what’s being pushed on us and the methods being used to push it. (3) If you are a Christian, you are ALREADY FREE. We don’t need Christ to free us. He already has. Your flesh is addicted, but your spirit is free. The free you is inside wanting to get out. In your spirit, you are not an addict, you are Jesus. The resurrection life of God is inside you and I. We need to start by believe that. He’s promised not to leave.
Bloody brilliant!
I just want to thank everyone for your comments and elaboration here. I was feeling discouraged with some thoughts I have struggled with for years. Coming here and reading your comments encouraged me tonight.
“But what if I stop believing?” You will no longer enjoy eternal life, but you won’t lose eternal life. If you could lose it, it wouldn’t be eternal, would it? Paul, what’s the difference between “not enjoy eternal life” and “lose eternal life”? For me, they are the same thing.
Eternal life is knowing God (John 17:3). Eternal life starts now. The saint is one with the Lord. But if you start acting faithless, you won’t enjoy the fact of your union. You’ll act like Jesus divorced you, even though he didn’t.
Its kind of the like Prodigal Son. His father never stopped claiming him as a son but he did not enjoy any of his father’s relationship while he lived in the far country.
Well said momzilla, I define Faith as the knowledge of relationship and our works of Faith are our response to that relationship.
The prodigal son didn’t understand the relationship in the first place so he was responding to his father out of his misconceived idea of their relationship.
The old son demonstrates his lack of understanding of the relationship in many ways. The Father points out one of these when he replies to his sons complaint, “you don’t even give me a goat so that I can celebrate with my friends”. The Father corrects his sons wrong knowledge and says, “don’t you know that everything I have is already yours to enjoy”
Wrong knowledge produces responses to lies.
The whole work of the enemy is to cause us to misunderstand the true nature of our Father.
Understanding God’s true nature, how he loves me so deeply, has been changing who I am.
I remember one day praying about things like this with him….and the servant who buried his gold popped into my head: ‘I knew you were a hard man, reaping where you had not sewn.’ The master essentially says, ‘Oh you did, did you?’ When I was little, I thought God was agreeing, now I see that the wrong actions on the servant’s part came from not knowing who the master was. He was bitter against the master.
For Sara: Jesus told that story before the cross. Thankfully at the cross he fixed it for us and now “bitterness against the master” is, post cross, just like any other sin, crucified. Oh, the enemy of your soul would like you to be anxious if you detect bitterness against God in your heart. But be encouraged by Numbers 21, which talks of the serpent on the pole in the wilderness, representing Jesus of course. We have a choice: look down on the serpent (be it any of the Christian “sin fears” such as Bitterness, Unforgiveness, Unbelief) and see it alive and biting…OR, even though we feel it writhing and coiling around our foot and its fangs and toxin in our flesh, rather look away and up. Look up at the cross and see that Bitterness serpent is dead, judged, bronzed. A bronzed, crucified serpent is a dead, powerless serpent without living energy to bite, rob, kill or destroy you in any way and without even living venom to poison you.
Also Jesus said, on the night he was handed over, I no longer call you servants but friends. Servant-Master relationships always have distance in them. He wants to be closer to you in the more relaxed, nurturing relationship of friendship where you can let your hair down and be real with him. John 15:15 It’s safe to be bitter against him, just take it to him and talk to him about it so he can heal/fix whatever the damage is.
Lisa Jane I love reading your replies. You bring out the truth that our dear Father and Jesus are even better than we have dared allow ourselves to believe. Please keep sharing, it makes my heart smile. Thank you.
What about in Matthew 10 where Jesus said that he will deny us before the father if we deny him before men?
That’s pretty much the only verse that I found problematic. Since it is the book of Matthew and he’s always amping up the Law since his audience is the Jews, I am assuming I likely am interpreting it wrong.
Please check out the Archives > Scripture Index.
Also, the writer of Hebrews says similar things.
“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” Hebrews 6:4-6
God had revealed to them His marvelous grace and they experienced the gift and received the Holy Spirit. At that point when they fall away there is nothing more God can do to win them back. I believe God continues to try to win them back, but at the same time, He has done all He can in the gift of His Son which they already experienced.
He can’t win them back because they have hardened their hearts. Like Judas who shared in the ministry of Jesus, they’ve tasted the goodness of God and rejected it. But this is not describing Christians. “we are convinced of better things in your case–the things that have to do with salvation.” More here.
Young cannot “lose” your salvation, but once you’re saved, you can go back and leave your first love, which in essence means you gave up your salvation.
“If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Peter 2:20-22
Peter is talking about people who follow Balaam rather than Jesus – false prophets and false apostles. You may be interested in this article on that passage.
So, do you believe God removes our free will once we become “saved”? For instance, once we’re “saved” we can’t choose another master?
Once you’re born you can’t become unborn. Once you’ve been made new, you can’t be made unnew. Once you’ve been given a new heart, you lose your old one. Good news, no?
Definitely good news and btw, I don’t believe in salvation by works.
I believe no one can pluck us out of God’s hand. I believe God will never leave me nor forsake me.
However, I believe I have a choice each and every day of whether or not I want to continue following Jesus.
I believe I can walk out of God’s hands anytime I want. I believe I can leave and forsake God anytime I want.
“….where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom” 2 Corinthians 3:17
I believe freedom to choose is one of the greatest gifts God gave us. Unfortunately, it’s the reason we have a devil, but it’s also the reason we can experience love.
More good news?
Shannon- If choosing Jesus were the same as joining a club then yes you could just leave if you changed your mind. However scripture describes it as God doing things to us and for us. When we believe on Jesus our old man is dead, we are given a new one it its place, our body of sins are cut off from us like a circumcision, our stone heart is removed and replaced with a living heart, we are adopted, married to Jesus, the Holy Spirit moves in and seals us with a seal that lasts until the last day, all of our sins are put under the blood of Jesus, Jesus buys us forever from sin slavery. God would have to kill off our new man and new heart, resurrect the old, reattach our sins, wash the Blood off of them, disown us, divorce us, delete an everlasting seal, sell us back into slavery. No where in scripture is this ever described as even capable of happening.
I don’t liken it to joining a club. I liken it to marriage. So, that begs this question. I’m a married man, can I leave my wife if I find someone better or am I forced to be with her forever?
Btw, you can’t be unborn, but you can die. There’s a battle going on between the flesh and the Spirit (Galatians 5:16-17) and that battle will continue until glorification.
If I can’t change my mind then I’m not free and if I’m not free then I can’t experience love. I’m free in Christ to choose any master I want, anytime I want.
I can either let God finish the work that He started in me or not. The choice is mine.
Yes, it is a marriage, but not a human one. The scriptures describe our union as connate, inseparable. That means, “If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself” (2 Tim 2:13). You are part of body of Christ and the Lord doesn’t self-amputate. By all means you can choose to act any way you like. You can choose to believe the sky is made of candy if you wish. But facts are facts.
Don’t take my word for it. Here are 130+ scriptures proving that your salvation is eternally secure.
I would have to disagree with your take on those verses and we will still have the same freedom that Lucifer had when we get our glorified bodies. I just believe that we will no longer choose sin over Christ at that point, but the freedom is still there.
Also, I wanted to mention that I enjoyed your article titled “Is God Sovereign”. I don’t find many people outside of my denomination with that understanding.
By the way, my point of the Lucifer comment was to show that even Lucifer was not eternally secure in his perfection in heaven. We are always free to choose.
The issue I see with eternal security is that it changes the character of God to be that of Satan by not allowing you to change your mind once you have been born again. Force is never the way of the God I see in the Person of Jesus Christ.
I enjoyed the dialogue, brothers.
Shannon – you said: “The issue I see with eternal security is that it changes the character of God to be that of Satan by not allowing you to change your mind once you have been born again.” There is error in what you seem to be very sure of. From your comments, there is the mixing of reasoning and scripture that kind of goes in circles. With hugs and love, let me just add this to the thread (for myself as well) – none of us are as smart as we think we are. God has so much to teach us. Our only hope of knowledge is to receive it by the Spirit of Grace. Humility will open the gates of wisdom from God, while arrogance is the way of the Pharisee. We are “allowed” to change our minds, certainly! But that doesn’t have the power to change or undo what God has done, the work of Christ, or kick the Spirit of God out of your spirit.
Jason,
We are born a natural birth and we can be born a spiritual birth (born again).
We can die a natural death and we can die a spiritual death.
To me, that’s as plain as it gets.
No, we can’t be “unborn”, but we can die and to deny that is to deny Scripture.
We can “grieve” the Holy Spirit, that’s spiritual death. That’s why we are counseled to not grieve the Holy Spirit. As I think I’ve said before in these comments, I am secure in Christ. I have more certainty in that than probably anyone I know. However, I’m equally certain that I can walk away from God and stop following Jesus anytime I want and although the Spirit will plead with me, God will now force me to follow Him or force me to allow Him to finish working in me.
You obviously see it differently and that’s okay by me. It’s not my burden to convince anyone. That job is above my pay grade. That job is for someone much, much higher.haha
“He will convince the world” – Jesus
All I’m called to do is follow Jesus and let His light shine in me.
Shannon, you say: “We are born a natural birth and we can be born a spiritual birth (born again). We can die a natural death and we can die a spiritual death.” There is a problem with that thinking. When we are born again, our spirit is resurrected with the Resurrection Life of God. It’s His spirit that I’m alive with. He’s in me and He’s not going to “die a spiritual death” no matter how disobedient I am or how much I change my mind about matters, or how ignorant I am about what the scriptures are teaching. It’s His commitment to us that matters. If we don’t abide, because we are too stubborn, stupid, or angry etc. then His relentless grace and love does not stop or leave us. This is really the same old song and dance of law and grace.
I think there are semantics at play in these back and forth comments. I’m not even sure of your point really. But some of your statements are rooted in reasoning that just don’t jibe with my Jesus! So, I wrote back. God bless.
Jason,
Yes, it sounds like you and I believe in two different Jesus’. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see which Jesus is the real one 😉
I used “my” as an expression of personal relationship, not to imply that there is a different version of Him to suit our imaginations. But if you don’t believe Jesus wants a personal relationship with you, then E2R is a great place to be reading. Glad you’re here.
Marriage or club you still are looking at it as some external thing that you sign up for and can drop memebrship of. Scripture does not support that view. God changes you, all of you, not just you nametag.
Slaves do not get to choose their masters. Jesus bought us once we called for redemption. We cannot go back to satan and force Jesus to sell us back. He bought us eternally.
Which brings me to a concept so simple that it often gets lost in the bigger aspects of the debate. Scripture uses the words eternal and everlasting regarding our salvation. You have to redefine those two words into meaning something else if salvation can have an end. By redefining the words you are playing fast and loose with basic plain scripture. Oh Jesus meant if you wanted to keep it salvation would last forever. or if you sinned too much it could get taken away. That means that salvation is not eternal but actually temporal until you make it to the end, faithful and untainted. Only after you died could it be eternal because then you could not lose it, give it up. Yet scriputre speaks of it as a present eternal, everlasting possesion.
How about defining “eternal” in this verse.
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” Jude 1:7
Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning because the Bible says they suffered “eternal fire”?
And yes, names can be blotted out of the book of life.
To suggest God blots out names, is to imply God makes mistakes. Thankfully he doesn’t and Jesus promised he would never blot out our names.
Btw, I’m an open theist. So, my premise is not that God makes mistakes, but that He simply doesn’t know our decisions until we make them many times because of the free will that He’s given us.
The eternal fire there is God’s fire not the physical flames they went under. Normal fire does not have vengeance. God does. Even if Jude was being eloquent with his usage of eternal there is no indication that Jesus was being crafty, poetic or tricky when He spoke about eternal and everlasting in John 3.
Hi Shannon,
How do you discern between the voice of your denomination and the voice of Jesus?
Colleen, it sounds like you don’t believe in eternal torment? That’s awesome! Neither do I.
The phrase “eternal torment” is never mentioned in the Bible. Plus, eternal doesn’t always mean what we English speaking people think it means either. That was my point when the other commenter used it to try and prove that eternal/everlasting always means forever as in no end.
Comparing Scripture with Scripture the verse in 2 Peter 2:6 and the verse in Jude 1:7 says that eternal fire doesn’t burn the cities forever. So, I agree with you on your point about “eternal fire”. The results are in essence eternal like we would define it, but the fire didn’t burn the cities forever nor will a fire burn the lost forever. (Malachi 4:1-3)
Btw, some would say I’m an annihilationist. However, I do not believe that God is imposing the annihilationism. I believe the Bible teaches that it’s intrinsic rather than imposed.
LJP,
Here’s how.
“To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”Isaiah 8:20
“Sanctify them through Thy truth, Thy word is truth.” – Jesus (John17:17)
Shannon, the law and the testimony speak of Jesus, who is the truth. I was hoping you would answer based on your personal relationship with Jesus the person, which is often necessary is daily life. We’re not always able to check our Bible app as we live our daily lives.
Also, you mentioned God doesn’t know our decisions until we make them because of our free will. Jesus knew Peter was going to deny Him three times, even though Peter’s will at the time was that it would never happen. We certainly have a free will, but it can change based on our current mood. Our oneness with the Trinity is not based on such a fickle foundation. Thank God that He is faithful to stick with us even if we get upset with Him. I might like to fly around like a bird :), but I do not have the characteristics needed to fly around in the trees. Our free will is limited by what is possible to us. I am a new creation and I don’t have the ability to change myself back into a spiritually dead person (or a bird).
LJP,
Nowhere in Scripture does it speak of having a “personal relationship” with Jesus. That was something relatively new to the church.
I believe God most directly speaks to us through His word, not some fickle feeling of what’s right or wrong.
“There is a way that seems right to man…”
Jesus never asked us to say a sinner’s prayer either. He asked us to “come follow” Him.
That’s what I do. I don’t follow my denomination or Paul Ellis. However, God has given me discernment to know whether my denomination, Paul Ellis, or anyone else is speaking according to what He has revealed to me in His word.
Btw, in regards to my open theism. You must have missed what I wrote. I said that God doesn’t “always” know what we are going to decide. Sometimes He does, but not always. He knows me better than I know myself. So, He definitely has a better grasp of where I am spiritually, just as He did with Peter. That’s why He could know that.
However, He didn’t know that Abraham “feared” Him until he offered up Isaac.
“….”for NOW I KNOW that you fear God” Genesis 22:12
There’s lots more things that God didn’t know based on our free will too, but this comment is long enough.ha
I’m sorry to hear that’s what you believe, you’re missing out on the best part (Luke 10:42, John 17:3).
LJP,
Those verses say nothing about a “personal relationship” with Jesus. The whole “personal relationship” was not part of the early church and if you take a look at how that concept began you will see that it individualizes the church rather than a corporate body.
It’s also interesting to note that one of the verses you quoted, John 17:3 (one of my faves btw), actually goes against what some of the commenters here have said.
Jesus never defined eternal life by living forever. To Jesus, eternal life was not about living forever, but instead about knowing God.
Knowing God is knowing that you are not independent (aka “personal relationship”), but instead part of a body.
I appreciate the dialogue, but I’m not convinced in individualized Christianity. It’s not what Jesus taught nor is it what the early church taught and that is “knowing You the only true God and Jesus Christ” John 17:3 #nolonerangers
You’re too late to convince me I can’t have a personal relationship with Jesus and my Heavenly Father, since I already do. The whole idea that God calls us His children and calls Himself our Father, screams relationship and is intensely personal. Church and relationships with others are actually much more alive through a personal relationship with Him. Not sure how you would know that if you don’t even believe in it.
LJP, When you find the Bible verses that back up your claim send them to me. I’m very open minded. However, Scripture goes a long way in convincing me. Grace and peace to you and yours. Thanks for the dialogue.
Same to you! Thanks
Hello LJP. 😉 “Also, you mentioned God doesn’t know our decisions until we make them because of our free will. Jesus knew Peter was going to deny Him three times, even though Peter’s will at the time was that it would never happen”. LJP just curious are you not of the persuasion that Jesus became a man and limited Himself of all of His God capabilities but did/said what He did by the Holy Spirit? Just like we have access to the knowledge from the Holy Spirit?
Just to clarify what I said ……..would be the bottom line summarization is that Jesus as a man was limited in His knowledge just as we are. Any insight of the ‘future’ would of been by the Spirit of God just as we have access in our limitations to the Spirit of God.
Hi Shelly, sorry I didn’t notice your question to me until now. Not sure how I missed it. Yes, I believe Jesus knew that by the Holy Spirit and that He was one with the Trinity as we are now. An argument was being made that we can lose our salvation because of our free will so I was making a couple of points regarding our free will. We have been given a free will to accept or reject Jesus and His completed work, but that doesn’t change the fact that God knows the end from the beginning. He’s not limited by time and knows what choices we will make. Jesus knew Peter would reject Him exactly 3 times that night and that 3 people at separate times would choose to give him that opportunity. When we choose Jesus and become a new creation, we become an eternal being like God. If that eternal nature could be undone it would not be eternal. Eternal life means both everlasting and a God quality of life.
Hi Shannon not so sure about the personal relationship but yes I do feel as well that a person can throw away their salvation…although to be honest it is not a doctrine I am worried about being right or wrong about cause even if I could/can throw my salvation away I do not intend on doing that…not ever!! But I am surprised that our position seems to be in the minority…..keep trucking for Jesus!
LJP your response time is incredibly fast in my opinion. I see more clearly what you were saying now. It is true that I do not have my mind wrapped around the whole time factor or should I say NON TIME factor with eternal matters.
lol, Shelly, that was fast. 🙂 Between having email issues and a few things going on at the time, I mistakenly thought your comment was from a couple of days ago.Thanks
Psalm 139 – very individual, intimate and personal
John 15:15 – I no longer call you servants but friends – what more “personal” and “relationship” can you ask for than a good friend?
Galatians 2:20 – who loved me and gave Himself for me: so personal, using the individual “me” instead of “us” and it doesn’t get more intimate than the concept of someone loving me personally!
Exodus 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.
John calling himself “the disciple whom Jesus loves.” (singular, personal)
We have both a corporate and an individual, personal relationship with Him as He fills many more than just one role in our lives. Not fair to Jesus to put Him in a box and limit Him to just one dimension.
But I fear that we are being led on a rabbit trail (away from Paul’s original topic). The effect is to bog down this commentary section. Shannon, recommend checking Paul’s archives for topics relevant to friendship, relationship, foreknowledge of God, etc.
Our life with Christ is communal, not personal or private or individual. When we are born again, we are born of the Spirit and become part of the “body of Christ”. We are baptized into “one body”, the body of Christ. The fingers don’t have a relationship with Jesus apart from the hand. The arm doesn’t have a relationship with Jesus apart from the leg and so on.
The danger in the “personal relationship” theme is that we make Jesus in the image of ourselves. If we see how the early church saw it and how Jesus taught it, then we become one with the “body”. It radically changes our view of Jesus and of the kingdom. I’m sure none of you see it from my perspective, but hey, at least I shared my thoughts.
‘Our life with Christ is communal, not personal’ or private or individual’ Amen! Trouble is, few Christians want to experience genuine fellowship with one another as it is far from easy! That is why we love services rather than meeting one another in our homes and genuinely sharing life together. An hour a week on a Sunday with a handshake, plus home group during the week if we are really committed and spiritual, will do us nicely thank you Shannon! And don’t you dare try to disturb it!!!😉
Lisa, I enjoy your perspective, and also Shannon’s. I do think we have all enjoyed some of the finer points of other people’s views. I have enjoyed the tone of discussion, especially from Shannon. I hope she continues to respond. If we all think the same way then maybe we are redundant in some respects. “Iron sharpens iron’ only when there is a bit of friction.
John 12: 20 Talks of how the Greeks came to the disciples asking to meet Jesus. The disciples told Jesus. His response? To summarize, He basically ignored their request and spoke instead of how his mission focus was on the cross, then he left and hid himself from them. Why? The Greeks idolized intellectual debate, dialogue and discussion just for the sake of it. They had forums where they would just get up and speak and speak cleverly, displaying their intellect and passion for knowledge, which was much admired in Greek culture. Missing was genuine thirsting as a deer pants for water or taking it onboard. As I was reading this section of comments this is the story that kept coming to mind. It is so easy for us to get ensnared in spinning our wheels in miry places. I felt a strong drawing on me to get into dialogue off topic and pulling me away from Christ. I like Jesus’ ability to focus with laser precision on the grace of the cross. Not keen to be drawn away from the powerful gospel message E2R posted above.
I come from a lifetime of disqualifing people and their views after filtering them through my very religious criteria.
Since I realized that even I could wrong (I admit it, I was wrong once) I make no demands that someone be totally correct before respecting them and their views. . . in an effort to understand.
Whether their arguments are clever or poorly developed I will lean towards them in an effort to understand their perspective.
If I can sense that ego is a major part of what they are defending, I won’t continue.
People can be heavily invested in their ego.
My comment. . .On topic. You are who God says you are, Our Father says to every born again believer, “you are my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased”.
Your ego(your sense of who you are) will sometimes tell you otherwise, often with the help of the very religious.
My work as a brother is to establish others in their(Jesus) righteousness, and that will involve communication.
Let’s keep talking.
I come from a lifetime of disqualifing people and their views after filtering them through my very religious criteria.
Since I realized that even I could be wrong (I admit it, I was wrong once) I make no demands that someone be totally correct before respecting them and their views. . . in an effort to understand.
Whether their arguments are clever or poorly developed I will lean towards them in an effort to understand their perspective.
If I can sense that ego is a major part of what they are defending, I won’t continue.
People can be heavily invested in their ego.
My comment. . .On topic. You are who God says you are, Our Father says to every born again believer, “you are my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased”.
Your ego(your sense of who you are) will sometimes tell you otherwise, often with the help of the very religious.
My work as a brother is to establish others in their(Jesus) righteousness, and that will involve communication.
Let’s keep talking.
Ok this is weird. I felt the Holy Spirit was giving me a discerning of the spirits moment there, that there was a bit of an outside spiritual influence to distract me and draw me away from the goodly revelations in Paul’s post, but I was not sure if I was imagining things. After finishing posting about the Greek distraction, I left E2R to go onto a prophetic website I sometimes visit. Unbelievably, the most recent post there was entitled: Time to Go on a Diet.
When I clicked on it, the message was all of two sentences: Have you identified your distractions yet? Starve your distractions and feed your focus.
Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses the truth is established.[ Deut 19:15, Matt 18:16 and 2 Cor 12:14] So maybe I’m not imagining it? Whatever the case, I’m no longer going to get drawn aside into this corporate/relationship/foreknowledge stuff and I’m off to go re-read Paul’s post and re-focus on the gospel grace of the cross in that.
The danger of making Jesus in the image of ourselves happens in a corperate setting as well. Many denominations have a Jesus that suits them but isn’t fully the whole image of Christ. I spent most of my teen years in one.
If you notice Jesus speaks to both the individual and the group. It is not one or the other but both. If Jesus is not brought into your daily life He stays in church at the meetings. Jesus then becomes church-ianity something you do not Someone who changes you, influences you and ultimately works through you. Even the old testament greats had a relationship with God or else how could they have heard Him. While I think the relationship aspect gets overemphasized because not all of us can feel God, hear from Him or get leading, etc there is so much more to it than group. I am currently group less as we live in a difficult area both legalistically and socially(horrible cliques). Despite having gone to a church building my entire life I have never felt part of a corperate group.
Hi Paul,
I think you have the wrong understanding of grace , even at the bottom of this page it states, and I quote GET FREE GRACE BY EMAIL! Are you insane? That’s what the problem is today, get it free! Obviously this free grace cost you nothing, let me give you a clue, grace is the understanding you don’t deserve mercy, grace is the understanding that through Christ living in you ,you no longer live in sinful behavior, grace is the understanding Christ paid for your sin, Grace is the understanding God and Christ expect nothing less of you than the apostles prophets or all those others talked about in Hebrews 11 Grace is the understanding to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. You sell grace like a cheap watch ! Tell the truth we are to walk blameless, upright and like Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit in us . Show me please where Jesus the apostles, the prophets or any other message was taught on grace but you cling to it ,like a license to teach a false doctrine! instead you could be teaching brokenness,humility, righteousness,repentance and what Jesus actually said.i quote if any man come after me let him deny himself take up his cross and follow me
Many thanks Daniel. Romans 6:1 What then shall we say? Should we continue sinning so and expect GRACE to abound?
Condescending is not a fruit of the Spirit. You’re not demonstrating the upright, blameless, and humble behavior you are demanding.
Hi Daniel. Ummmmm…… never mind.
Just spend some more time reading through E2R and you’ll see the “brokenness, humility, righteousness, repentance and (knowing) what Jesus actually said” is exactly the result of what is taught here.
Actually, I’d like to pose a question to you. Do you think there is a difference in having an understanding of grace and having a revelation of Grace?
You are missing something vital about grace. We know that grace is free for us and also came at a terrible price, the suffering and death of Jesus. Grace cannot be bought or earned by human merit, not even sincere hearted attempts at living pure and holy. If it is of work it is not of grace. This full submitting of the flesh to the full and finished work of Christ is one of the hardest things the flesh has to do. The flesh hates to give place to Jesus. It fights tooth and nail to be the key into right standing with God and heaven. It does not want to lay down in utter helplessness and admit that Jesus did all the work so that He gets al the glory! Grace is the unearned, undeserved mercy of God. It is a gift not the wages of working, trying to be blameless or of trying to walk upright. God does not wish to share in the bragging rights of our salvation. He gives it as a gift it so that those who are saved have no room to boast at how they succeeded in walking upright, living blameless and/or of how hard they worked to make it to the end. We live right, walk upright and aim for blamelessness not because we are trying to earn or win something but out of gratitude that we have been given the most important thing of all. I challenge you to deeply read around on this site and see if the author here is so crass and clueless about real bible grace as you assume.
Amen
Well since the commentator hates the truth he would rather delete my comments,absolutely shameful cowardly and obviously satan’s Seed so who are the wolves in sheeps clothing? BEWARE of the false teachers!! 1Timothy 4::1-2 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
I don’t mind being called names and abused for preaching the gospel, but when you start going after other readers and calling them fools and so forth, those comments won’t see the light of day.
Thank you for taking the time to comment. However, please note that comments violating E2R’s Comment Policy won’t get published.
I am happy to publish different points of view. However, please note that comments that are rude, abusive, have been cut and pasted, or are longer than 250 words don’t get published.
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Many contrary opinions get published here as long as they follow the comment policy and refrain from playground name calling and/or character attacks instead of dealing with the actual topic in a clear and concise manner. My point about the flesh fighting tooth and nail about not wanting to submit to the work of Jesus is being proved every time you yell and rant.
No one here is “coming against” your husband. However, your husband has been hostile and rude to several readers and those comments were not published. Please note that comments that violate E2R’s Comment Policy do not get published. This includes comments that are abusive, long, or have nothing to do with the article being discussed. The same guidelines apply to everyone. I encourage you to check them out. Thanks.
Words have a way of showing the true heart of a person.(Matt 7:20, 12:37) A person can concisely state the truth in blazing light without even dropping a hint of coarseness in their speech.(Col 3:8, Eph. 4:31) One very close to Christ would also know to refrain from calling fire down from heaven upon rejection just as He did.(Luke 9:53-55) Repentance is not a tool for subjugating one’s enemies but the holy result of the goodness and longsuffering of God.(Romans 2:4) Jesus once said that there was a key that the world would use to identify His disciples.(John 13:35, fully defined in-1 Corinthians 13)
Hello, l was born again around 30 years ago and have really struggled with eternal security, when Jesus talks of the vine and the branches that do not bear fruit are cast away and collected by men and are burned and of course Lord Lord did we not prophesy etc, and Heb 5:9 as you quoted, is it conditional upon us obeying and also the verse where it is impossible to receive repentance if we fall away. I shouldn’t struggle but I never had a father son relationship with my dad, and I was born again similar to Saul on his way to Damascus , also my brother was born again just after me and was reading and highlighting scriptures Les by Holy Ghost but after two months fell away back to drunk and cussing and unforgivness, is he saved , thanks Mark
Hi Mark. You can find articles on those scriptures in the Archives > Scripture Index.
All these comments sound great to the flesh and TOTALLY ignore the warnings of the Bible and treat them as “meanies trying to scare us”…but the Bible is very clear about living in deliberate sin after RECEIVING the knowledge of the truth.
Hebrews 10:28-33.
It is possible to insults the spirit of grace and trample the blood of the covenant.
This doesn’t feel good to the flesh, that wants to think it’s a free ticket to eternity that none can lose.. But spreading a bunch of ear tickling teaching feels even worse to the Spirit inside.
Be very careful the license you are handing out. You aren’t doing anyone any favors by assuring them of what you do not know for certain.
I could give you a list a mile long that totally contradicts your standing…but I know that once the flesh is given that license to do whatever with friendly Jesus who never said some people were not worthy of Him, well, they are hard to convince once they have proven to themselves they don’t have to put the flesh down and be obedient- because it matters.
I have a list a mile-long too, Amber, and I wonder if you are open to reading it. I won’t make any assumptions about your flesh, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Here it is.
You insult the Spirit of grace by counting the Blood which sanctified you as an unholy thing. How do you count it un-holy? By treating it as just the same as ordinary animal blood which only worked until you sinned again and then a new animal had to die for your new sins. At the beginning of chapter 10 we are walked through how different the blood offering of Jesus is from the animal sacrifices. Not only different but the work of Christ culminates with Him sitting down having finished His work with the blood on our sin and the end result is our sancrification.
That is why context is so vital. We get taught to look at the verses about trampling the blood out by themselves. Yet they come after the full description of how Jesus priestly work is so epic and different than human priest’s work on sin. Don’t wilfully treat the blood which sanctified as you weak animal blood only able to cleanse you until you sin again.
Amen
There’s a sliver of comedy in hearing the same never-ending complaint from the religious minded. To those who are actually escaping the hold of this world and the prince of it, leaving the desires of the flesh behind, walking in the Spirit and discovering the joy of Christ and that obedience is equivalent to rest they say, “you just want to live in sin and indulge your flesh, so you like ear tickling teaching that lets you do whatever you want and not have to submit to the Lord”. Folks, come on… shake off those blinders. Look at the cross! What do you think happened there? Our heavenly Father sacrificed His son to BE WITH YOU. We can read the bible and make our lists of verses, but without the Holy Spirit’s teaching we might as well be reading in the dark… like in a dark cave with no light, at night time. Jesus is my EVERYTHING. He’s changing my perspective every day to more align with His (which can never happen with a sin focus or salvation keeping focus or staying forgiven focus). I’ll not trash my relationship with God by going back to a fake and phony religious existence. Frankly, the thought is disgusting. Why would I go back to drowning in my pathetic self-efforts to live for God? Jesus came to break us out of that prison! Only a mind trapped under the Law confuses freedom FROM sin with a license TO sin. A heart gripped by Grace doesn’t struggle with this issue. It simply enjoys the ride.
Gloria a Deus que nós proveu tão grande Salvação. A qual é impossivel para o ser-humano.
Totally false presentation!!! One can lose their salvation, that’s the reason why Jesus preferred entry into God’s kingdom with one eye or leg over having both eyes and legs, but then ending up in hell. Jesus here, was warning us against occasions of sin. We’re to flee all sin and resist temptation so long as we are capable so as not to endanger our salvation.
So a question then arises. Why did Jesus come, suffer and die if everything is up to our ability to avoid sinning?
If salvation(or our ability to keep it) and heaven are solely based upon our sin avoidance we do not need Jesus as His death does absolutely nothing for us or at least does nothing of any lasting effect. If what you do not do gets(or keeps) you saved then it is you who are your savior not Jesus. Tread very carefully. Yes we should shun sin but not to buy or deserve our salvation but because we have been bought with a very high price.