Joseph Prince on Prosperity and Success

What would you think if you turned on your TV and spotted a preacher wearing nice clothes, preaching to thousands of people inside a well-furnished building on the subject of prosperity and success? If you’re like me, you might shake your head at the shameless preaching of the so-called “prosperity gospel” and switch right off. But if the preacher in question was Joseph Prince, you would be making a mistake.

Contrary to what the devil would have you believe, the words “prosperity” and “success” are actually found in the Bible, so any preacher who aims to teach the full counsel of scripture must surely talk about them. The only difference with Joseph Prince is that he is not ashamed to do so. Even if you have only a passing awareness of his ministry, you will know this. Afterall, the subtitle of his first book, Destined to Reign, is “The Secret to Effortless Success, Wholeness and Victorious Living,” while the first chapter of his second book, Unmerited Favor, is labeled “The Definition of Success.” And if we are to return to a Biblical view of such things, a good definition is a good place to start.

The world defines success in terms of what you have done and what you have accumulated. But the Bible defines success in terms of Jesus. As CS Lewis said,

“He who has God and everything else has nothing more than he who has God alone.”

Imagine a prisoner with no hope of freedom and who spends his days waiting to die. Then, inexplicably, a great and loving king befriends him. The king frees the prisoner, pays his debt and adopts him into the royal family. Let me ask you this: Will the prisoner now become healthier than he was when he was in prison? Will he have better prospects? Will he be blessed and in a better position to bless others? Of course he will. But if we or the prisoner become preoccupied with the change in his circumstances, we will miss the greatest change of all, which is that the king now calls him “friend.”

It saddens me to see some people bickering over the blessings. They miss the astounding thing, which is that a Great King calls us his “friends” (Jn 15:15). If you have Jesus and nothing else, you have something of infinitely greater value than the entire universe. Anything extra is just loose change. And yet God, in his awesome generosity, promises to take care of all those little extras that we need:

“But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.” (Mt 6:33)

When we look for Jesus, everything else gets taken care of. And we’re not just talking about our basic needs, for he is the God of “more than enough”. In Unmerited Favor, Prince reflects on the story of Joseph, a prisoner in a foreign land. Joseph had nothing, but the Lord was with him, therefore he was successful and it was only a question of time when his earthly circumstances reflected that spiritual reality.

Joseph Prince has been preaching on true success for years and I don’t have the space here to give you anything more than a taste. But what I do have is a list of 12 quotes taken from Unmerited Favor. I present these quotes simply to get believers thinking about a subject that has been considered taboo for too long:

1.    “Success is not what you have, but rather who you have.” (p.3)

2.    “God has no problem with you having money, but He does not want money to have you!” (p.27)

3.    “There is no such thing as a ‘prosperity gospel.’ There is only one gospel and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ.” (p.29)

4.    “When the little boy brought his five loaves and two fishes to Jesus, did He gobble them up and say, ‘I am giving you a lesson in poverty?’ Of course not!… Jesus did not feed the multitudes with just enough food. He blessed them with more than enough food. He is the God of more than enough and that is His style. Likewise, Jesus wants to bless you with more than enough, so that you can be a blessing to others.” (p.238)

5.    “The Lord blessed Abraham so that he could be a blessing to others… You cannot be a blessing to those around you – your loved ones, local church, community and the poor – if you are not blessed by the Lord first.” (p.231)

6.    “Religion is blinding. Religion will tell you that ‘God’ wants you sick to teaching you character and patience. Religion will tell you that ‘God’ wants you poor, so that you will learn humility. It sounds noble, doesn’t it? But these are LIES from the pit of hell! Let me tell you this: It is the devil who wants you sick and poor, but the God I know paid a heavy price to redeem you from the curse of sickness and poverty!” (p.30)

7.    “The more occupied you are with Jesus, the more money follows after you! Now why is that? It is simply because when you seek first the kingdom of God, and put Jesus, His righteousness (not your righteousness), His joy and His peace as your first priority, God’s Word promises you that ALL the material things that you need will be added to you.” (pp.233-4)

8.    “Don’t love money and use people. Use money to love people.” (p.234)

9.    “The secret to walking in the blessing of Abraham in your life is to stop trying to deserve it.” (p.240)

10.    “The irony is that if you were to examine the lives of those believers who fight against the teaching that God blesses His children with more than enough, you would see that they have no problems with doing their best to secure a nice home and give their children the best education money can buy… You see, they have no problem with accumulating wealth for themselves and living well, but they have a problem when we tell them that financial success is from God. They would rather believe in their self-efforts and say that their success is ‘self-made,’ than give God the credit.” (p.232)

11.    “There are no ‘money problems,’ only ‘idea problems.’” (p.308)

12.    “Don’t be afraid to use the word ‘prosperous.’ It’s God’s promise in the Bible.” (p.207)

I don’t know about you, but I read these quotes and think “sounds reasonable to me.” Yet I know that others will react strenuously against this merely because it’s politically incorrect for Christians to even discuss these things, or because they think we’re better off poor and sick (even while they’re working hard to save money and stay healthy). What do you think?

147 Comments on Joseph Prince on Prosperity and Success

  1. Spot on once again Paul!! Joseph Prince has been spilling Grace beans long before most of us even knew such a doctrine existed. I heard Charolette Cronk say the other nigth that Joseph Prince probably has more truth in his pinky than 90% of the world combined.

    Just tonight we were ministering to a group of young adults here at a camp and I shared the exact same CS Lewis quote! Jesus was Gods greatest gift to mankind. If God didn’t withold Him from us, why would He not along with His own Son give us all things? Great job with this post man, I loved reading it!! In Grace, Andre van der Merwe

  2. 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. ~ Pity Paul didn’t have a copy of Destined to reign the secret to EFFORTLESS success! Why is it these books are only written by the super wealthy pastors? Maybe spend some time will believers in Pakistan where they constantly loose their possessions (and they don’t have much) just because they are Christians.(Same thing was happening to the believers in Hebrews)
    John Piper says it well

    • Surely the point being made here is that no-one can be a blessing to the believers in Pakistan if they are not themselves blessed by God – spiritually or financially. All missionary and compassionate ministries are supported by individual believers who give from God’s blessing to them by His Grace – and His Grace results in a generous heart which is not focused on self and money but on The Lord Jesus and His desire to bless the world. Paul talks about the financial and other support he and other needy believers received from churches in his epistles. Paul also had compensations for his sufferings – how many of us have been caught up to the “Third Heaven” or received “abundance of revelations” which required a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble?

      • Oh my goodness! I have never seen such terrible twisting of scripture besides Mormons. Does anyone think these folks were rich before they were beheaded?

        “Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years”

        Perhaps they hadn’t received the proper blessings?

    • the same paul also stated “ALL THINGS are yours” to whom you stated above: the corinthians! so its not being poverty/prosperity mentality but Christ Mentality Who made all Things!

    • sure the pakistani christians are persecuted! halleluyah. but that shouldn’t stop the true Gospel from being preached which has the power to change them both physically, spiritually, financially etc

    • John Piper sir is a Heretic. Anyone who preaches limited atonement. That is ( Christ did not die for everyone) is preaching a dogmatic philosophy. He,like Todd Friel preach venom on a weekly basis. if you will notice Friel spends half his time cutting down other religions. “If your not Baptist your mud”. Oh, they want come right out a say that but it’s not hard to read between the lines. Those who set under their teaching comes away believing it. Such as yourself. The very ones who scream the message that everyone else is wrong, is in fact the very ones leading people down the wrong road. Piper loves to use the word Grace but the love of God is far from his lips. (For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. That WHOSOEVER believes on him shall have everlasting life.) The problem with Piper and those who preach this doctrine do not understand the writings of Paul to the Romans. 2 Peter 3:9 It is not Gods will that any should perish. According to Piper IT IS God’s will that certain people perish. Do you believe Peter, or Piper. I’ll take Peter.

      • So preaching limited atonement is a heretic?
        How about before labelling someone so arrogantly and pridefully you at least have consideration or maybe the humility to say that you are wrong. I am not taking sides but I am sick of people who, with much snobbery, say this guys wrong (even when so many say he isn’t), I’m right! Not even a chance that you misunderstood. Is he not your brother? Where’s is the love. Thnk.

  3. Thanks so much. This is surely a blessing. God bless you. Keep on writing. I learned a lot from everything that you have written. A million thanks.

  4. Gum, don’t you see… YOU are the blessing God has brought to these people. The blessings God gives us sometimes are not thing of monetary value. These people received YOU from God. Sounds like a prayer answered to me. I used to be caught up in listening to people like John Piper, Todd Friel and the like. All I ever heard was LAW, LAW, and more LAW. These people follow in the steps of John Calvin. A man who once thought he had the right to kill a man because he differed with him on the Scriptures. Wake up man.. It’s not about Law, Law, Law. It’s about GRACE, GRACE, GRACE… Thank you Jesus…

  5. Hi Jim. Good job in summarizing the gospel of Grace preached by Pastor Joseph Prince. I have one question. I would like to know the pastor’s views on the rapture. Has he ever preached it to the church? Thank you in advanced for your reply.

  6. Blessed is the man who is not taking any offence just because a brother or a sister is prosperous. We should rejoice when God prosper our brothers and sisters in Christ and not jealous over their prosperity and wealth. Afterall, if is not from God how can they sustain? And if is from God, we know we are next. 🙂

    • You miss the problem. We don’t take offense because a brother is prosperous. We take offense when it is preached that Christians, when they are right in the faith, become prosperous. That is bunk. They may, they may not… God has a plan for many to not succeed financially or in health. He uses them to reach others and teach others. The underground Church in China… those believers beheaded by ISIS… prosperity should not be preached as a gift we can claim from God… He has already given us all that we need in Christ and owes us not a thing.

      • Matt Mcallum // February 2, 2016 at 4:54 pm //

        I agree… . My church is having a “Year of ‘Supernatural Growth and Prosperity'”, but it just feels wrong to me … , either that or extremely dangerous(!!)

  7. Paul, I’m deeply amazed at the shallowness of your evaluation of Prince’s theology (if I may call it that). You present a few quotes as if the quotes in themselves provide one with the context of the overall message of Prince. Now surely even the chief of heretics do say truth at some point of their theology and yet that doesn’t necessarily make their theology correct. This whole issue of the wealth, health and success preaching if you have a close look is a missing of the point of what the gospel is all about. Just because prosperity and success are mentioned doesn’t make it a point of preaching unless it follows the correct principles of biblical interpretation.

    I’d say that these Prosperity Teachers should be given a moment to live in slums of Brazil, Kenya and South Africa…and move to Pakistan, China, or any of the Arab countries…I bet there their prosperity message will face REALITY. Moreover, the prosperity message fails to be universally true to all who believe i.e. the message salvation if preached in any nation will wield converts to Christ irregardless but the prosperity message only works for the pastors. Especially when you people from the West speak of prosperity you should be deeply ashamed of having neglected the most important things of the gospel and drive the church to materialism…

    I bet you come to Africa…come to Latin America…come to Asia…come in our slums, live under our governments and you’ll discover the falsity of the prosperity message of a good life and nothing else but success and health as rewards for being children of the King of the Universe.

    • The Word of God does not say that these are “rewards for being children of” God. That is where the problem is, when we try to somehow earn blessings or provision. What the Bible does say is (Jesus speaking) Matthew 6:33 “But seek ye first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you”. In context, “all these things” refers to what we eat, drink and wear. The point is that when we focus on Christ and His righteousness, and the fact that we are the righteousness of God in Christ, we no longer focus on our struggles and needs. God has said that I am more valuable to Him than birds and lilies (same chapter) and that He takes care of their needs. How much more for me, His beloved, seated with Christ and heir to the Kingdom? I believe what God says more than I believe the circumstances or situation around me. I live in Kenya (Africa) and I do not believe that God sees 1st, 2nd or 3rd World classifications. When He says it, it is done; it is so regardless of…well, anything.

    • I live in India!! You didn’t get the point. Don’t see your surroundings (Slums, Government etc etc) His message is always look to Jesus… Seek first His kingdom and His Righteousness!
      Being in a Poverty is a curse!! He came to redeem us from that curse.!! I don’t know about you my friend. I am blessed inwardly and as well as outwardly after receiving these messages and declaring myself that i am the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus!
      I am now free from my debts not only that i have become a blessing to bless others.
      “Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.” 3 John 1:2
      The above verse is our GOD’S top most priority(above evangelism, above religion etc).. that we may prosper (in all areas) and be in good health.

      • Our prosperity is God’s top most priority…? Raj, I suggest you lay aside whatever has given you this idea and read the New Testament in its entirety, without any preconceptions or wish-dreams. You will find that true Christianity has to do with Raj dying to Raj and all his needs, wants, desires, concerns for self etc. and being resurrected as a servant lover of God and others, living in an intimate union with Christ and hating his life in this world. That happens to be God’s top most priority, and if that is not your premise you may very well have been duped with regards to your salvation. I’m sure you are sincere in your faith, but you HAVE to expand your understanding of Christ’s work on the cross. Forget this debate and learn how to walk with Him, feed on Him, learn from Him and be satisfied in Him. Bless you.

  8. According to your Gospel, Basilius, God really doesn’t care, nor does He have a solution for the disease and poverty of the 3rd World countries, because the only part of man that God cares about is his soul and it’s eternal destination.

    • Gordon, I live in Africa and we are seeing firsthand what the prosperity gospel is doing to the churches (this from the mouths of my black brothers in the townships and squatter camps – not the heresy hunters in their theological ivory towers). Of all the unbiblical nonsense that has washed up on our shores (all the way from the good old US of A, of course) this is definitely the most destructive. I advise you to take a look at the actual stats – who pays the money in the prosperity movement and who receives it. And then you’ll see that it is nothing but a grandiose pyramid scheme benefitting the guys on top. Please tell me two things: 1. Why do the prosperity preachers not tell their audiences to race to the the squatter camps/slums right after their give-to-get sermons and empty their purses their, instead of into the ministry’s coffers, to receive their blessing/reap their harvest? Secondly: If the whole thing works so well, why don’t the prosperity preachers give out money during their services instead of collecting it? Then they will be even more blessed than what they already are.

      My friend, God does care, and he gave his life through and in Jesus Christ to solve the problem of disease and poverty in 3rd World countries (and the rest of the world), but that part of our redemption will indeed only manifest at his return. In this present age God will provide our basic necessities, and in his sovereignty he will allow some of us to gain wealth, but that’s it. If you expect anything beyond “food and clothing” (Paul in 1 Timothy 6) as a result of your faith, you fall into the trap of seeing “godliness as a means to gain” (same chapter) and then you qualify yourself as a heretic. That’s Paul, by the way, not me, Ole Anthony, Hank Hanegraaff, John MacArthur, Dave Hunt or any one of the thousands of godly, Bible-based men and women who stand united in their rejection of the prosperity doctrine. Basilius, you could not be more spot on.

      • Roshan J Easo // March 19, 2017 at 8:45 am //

        You are preaching pure law. Not grace. James was an apostle of grace. I’m not saying throw james out always, but usually no one teaches grace from James. I have spent years teaching grace, and it bears better. Grace is the only thing that distinguishes Christianity as the end of religion.

      • Roshan – with all due respect: If what I wrote on the tragic excesses of the prosperity movement is seen as “preaching pure law” by you, then you have no grasp of either the Law or grace. (I am actually not even sure of you responded to me, as your response has nothing to do with what I wrote?) For what it’s worth: Many of us who have been preaching the grace message for decades have rejected the prosperity message for one simple reason: It undermines grace by adding a condition to salvation which opens the door for a new type of legalism, namely “thou shalt prosper!” Needless to say, this also opens the door for a new type of guilt and condemnation which manifest when one fails to live up to the new standard of prosperity. So no, rejecting the notion that God requires us to prosper is not law but grace in its purest form. Nothing could be more prosperous than the joy of true salvation coupled with the hope of our inheritance in the age to come. To add to this is to burden God’s children in the exact way that the Judaizers did with the church in Galatia.

      • Tobie, that is a very interesting observation. I have heard it before but not in the context of prosperity. Normally, I hear about it in the context of healing. Whenever I talk about divine health I hear the argument that I am putting the sick under guilt and condemnation. If I were to heed such views, I would never preach about health and I would never heal the sick. I don’t know anyone here who says “God requires us to prosper” anymore than I’ve heard God requires us to be healthy. Health of any kind – physical, emotional, financial – is a blessing. Conversely poverty of any kind is a curse. Wouldn’t you rather be blessed than cursed?

        Surely the proper response to the excesses of the prosperity movement is to preach true prosperity, rather than oppose all talk about it.

      • Colleen G // March 21, 2017 at 7:39 am //

        You are both right. There are two kinds of prosperity teachers/messages out there. At first both sound the same God loves you and wants to take care of you. However after being around the books, magazines and programs some preacher/teachers are promoting a get rich, give us your money and God will make you rich too kind of message pretending it is the true prosperity of Jesus. The difference I found is that the real biblical prosperity preacher/teachers teach on all kinds of subjects while the get rich folks seem to focus a lot more of their time on finances and asking for seed money.(for you blessing of course). God will provide for our needs but not our fleshly wants. Although he loves giving because he loves us he also knows when it is just feeding our flesh instead of helping us.

      • Paul, it is much subtler than the overt legalism that we are both against. I am referring to a type of triumphalism that is modeled and emulated in many Christian communities where prosperity is preached, which ultimately tends to polarise the community into “haves” and “have-nots,” with the latter spending much time and energy trying to figure out why things aren’t working out for them according to the expectations raised by the teaching. In such a system the voice is given to those in whose lives the blessings seem to manifest, so the doctrine perpetuates itself whilst the disillusioned silently disappear through the cracks. I am sensitised to the size of this crowd as many of them tend to cross my path, for a number of reasons. To guide them back to their liberty in Christ, and share in their astounded relief as they see and embrace it, is a remarkably similar experience to sharing the grace message with those who have been burdened by legalistic preaching. This is where I see the link. As for teaching true prosperity: By all means, but then it must correlate with the way in which the apostle of grace spoke about it: “But godliness with contentment is great gain, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content.”

  9. For some of those who criticize, such as some above “I’d say that these Prosperity Teachers should be given a moment to live in slums of Brazil, Kenya and South Africa…and move to Pakistan, China, or any of the Arab countries…I bet there their prosperity message will face REALITY”

    Well I have lived and ministered in Burma, going to church with military and barbed wires and spies and persecution etc. I also taught Biblical Prosperity for 5 years and for the last 12 years of living in Asia, ministering in some of the worlds poorest nations I have seen others set free from poverty mentality and thinking. I have seen the poverty in Nepal and Sri Lanka and India etc. I have preached and ministered the goodness of God in all these nations and seen people set free. I will continue to preach the Gospel of God which promises prosperity and healing and deliverance and freedom like we have never known

    Oh how weary I am when armchair prophets going ‘blah blah blah’ against prosperity and grace. Self appointed spiritual sherrifs think they have the edge on Gods revelation and of what constitutes orthodoxy and they beat people over the head with the truncheon forged of mere human opinion – yawn.

    Joseph Prince once paid for our families entire airfare from Burma to Singapore and He had never met us. It was the Lord’s supernatural provision at a critical time for us in ministry.

    Thank God for the Gospel and forget none of His benefits in Christ!

    • AskLifeCoach // October 29, 2013 at 12:01 pm // Reply

      THANK YOU FOR SHARING YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I do not understand why anyone feels a need to take a “side” for or against health and prosperity? I have never read in the Bible that The Lord prefers us to live in poverty and suffer with illness. It makes no sense that people who ALL love The Lord would argue about this. How much help are the poor and unhealthy believers able to provide to their neighbors?

      I do not need to understand why everything is the way it is in this world…I only need to understand that God has it all under control. This Life is like a jigsaw puzzle that has so many pieces, only God is far enough back to understand how all the pieces are coming together perfectly, exactly as He wants them to. To the rest of us…we look around and see piles of messy pieces not fitting together…and when we are trusting the lord, we understand that everything is OK. We do not need to see the big picture. We can rest peacefully, knowing that our Lord DREW the picture on the box top…and He knows where every piece fits and all the pieces are continually moving towards their proper positions, even when all we see next to us are those messy piles.

      Who can seriously imagine our Lord being pleased by his children arguing over church doctrines? OVERALL I am glad to read the loving and kind words posted in reply to other judge-mental messages. When our hearts are experiencing His peace we are listening to His Holy Spirit within us, and when we are in turmoil and feeling hostile, and unloving…perhaps we need to recognize that the thoughts that provoke us to speak and act un-lovingly, are possibly NOT whispered from our Lord?

      This debate is a surprise to me. I am saved by His Grace…only Grace…how can someone teach too much Grace? Why would anyone teach AGAINST Grace and Prosperity…when ALL that we have is a gift from God? All that we need is Jesus…when we have Him we have everything we need and that IS prosperity!

      • Because there are some prosperity teachers who have it wrong. Unfortunately the term “prosperity” causes it all to be lumped into one pile. Also because “some” people are not seeing any prosperity in their lives they use the Prosperity message as a means to attack others beliefs because it can’t be truthful since it’s not happening in their own lives. As Joseph Prince says “Prosperity does not equal materialism” Unfortunately that is how many preachers/teachers are using(abusing) it. The late Kenneth E. Hagin’s last book titled “The Midas Touch” was about this very subject within the Faith movement. He was specifically targeting a few who are still big names today.
        As you mentioned it is by His Grace however that Grace is only activated by ones own Faith. It takes the two. You can’t have one without the other. For some having the Faith to believe in and for prosperity and even healing is simply not there….YET! Faith comes by hearing…….

  10. Hi
    What would one say to a godly christian family of 5 sons, all of whom were haemophelics. The hospital made an error in their blood transfusion therapy, and all 5 contracted HIV, and all died in the next 10 years? This is a true story. What would biblical prosperity say to that?

    Thank you,
    God bless

  11. nice but wait, question: in all the message that have been preached over the years in all the places you mentioned, was it Christ centred Only or Christ+something else centred which has caused dem 2 b where they are? i believe most of prosperity preachers point to money instead of Christ unlike jp

  12. Let us all be careful that we don’t lose focus of Jesus Christ as we become fans of this and that teacher, this and that self-proclaimed prophet and apostle. Jesus Christ will always be our highest ministry example, and Jesus expressly told people: “Your sins are forgiven, GO AND SIN NO MORE”. As it happens we may be living under grace, but deliberately continuing to sin is rebellion to God and also disrespect for what Jesus has done for us. May we also remember that we have an enemy, the devil, who comes to steal kill and destroy. If we deliberately live in rebellion then we give the enemy legal rights to attack and this could result in curses in one’s life. While is is nice to be all comfy and go on about blessings and prosperity, let us not forget that we are still living in the real world. And if we look at Jesus’ life and even the disciples’ lives after Jesus’ death and resurrection, then we will see that they had a very diffcult time. Not only was Jesus persecuted, hated, slandered, almost killed by Herod, beaten and crucified……..but His disciples were also persecuted. Paul and Peter were in jail, Stephen was stoned to death, Peter was crucified upside down, Timothy suffered from frequent spells of illness, Paul had a “thorn in his flesh” (we don’t know exactly what this was), Annanias and Sapphira died on the spot for lying to the Holy Spirit ….and I can name countless more examples. Oh yes, and what about that great tribulation prophesied about in the Book of Revelation?!? – What a wonderful time of prosperity we can all look forward to then!! No amount of positive confession will be able to get rid of that one for us!

    Please brothers and sisters, let us not leave our brains on the shelf just because we are Christians. Let us not yield to the seducing and deceiving spirits of the unbalanced prosperity gospel of health and wealth.

    I do believe God heals today according to His sovereign will, but the “When” and “How” and “Why” is up to God. God is not a giant slot machine in the sky where you press a button and your blessing comes out. I think people will start behaving like spoilt little children if they always get everything they want immediately. We all know very well that even though the faith healers preach this, it does not happen like that in reality and then they falsely like to blame the ill person’s “lack of faith” even though Jesus said that you only requires faith as small as a mustard seed. And about prosperity: Jesus Christ will always be our highest ministry example, and He and His disciples NEVER focused on financial prosperity. They never went around teaching people WOF techniques to bring about wealth and health. The prosperity gospel is “another gospel” and teaches “another jesus”.

    We are currently living in the time of the great apostacy prophesied about in the Bible, where is is a falling away from the true faith from within the church due to all the deception and heresy that has crept into the church. Pray for discernment and study the Word of god against which everything must be measured.


  13. i think people are getting it wrong. as far as i have heard Pastor JP preach on grace, His focus is on Jesus. everything is about Jesus, he always points to Jesus and resting in His finished work! it’s not about you, it’s about Jesus, and knowing Him, and out of that comes everything else! i get goosebumps about this. i know the Holy Spirit is present in what i’m reading and listening to, because the peace of God guides me. i also used to think Christians should be the poor, broke, and busted of society, but how can a good God, a good Father no less, not look after his kids and provide the best for them? in human terms most people would call that a deadbeat dad. but that’s not what God is like! if we as humans know how to give our kids good gifts, how much more so our good God? i don’t believe God wants us to be poor. But i do beieve He wants us to seek first His kingdom, and ALL these things will be added unto us.

    this isn’t the prosperity gospel, this IS the Gospel of Jesus Christ! God didn’t give us things, He gave us Jesus, because in Him are ALL things. i don’t think you’ll have a problem if you keep your eyes on Jesus, and people who don’t believe this also need to do their own study of the Bible, and maybe ask the Holy Spirit to give us a brand new, clear revelation of who our Father is! because He is good, and He loves us, and He takes care of us. If God wants to bless me and keep blessing me and keep blessing me, just because i’m His child, should i say no because some Christians will think i’m prospering too much? NO!!! I’m blessed to be a blessing, so that i can go to those slums and what have you and tell the people that Jesus came to change their lives!!!!! and at the end of the day, what can a poor person give another poor person?

    this Gospel is the good news of JESUS. and He changes EVERYTHING. goodness, how can we not love Him back?? :’)

  14. I did not say God wants us to be poor, broke, and busted of society. I merely want people to realise that just because they became a christian does not mean they will suddenly have a blessed and easy and propserous life. People should wkae up to the reality that in certain countries where there is vast unemployment and poverty which will not be changed by the “positive confession” techniques and “sowing of financial seeds” advocated by pastors like Prince and others who preach the prosperity gospel. If a person is a streetsweeper, they will not suddenly become rich just by believing the gospel. Jesus said in Matthew 26v11 “The poor you will always have with you”.

    People will also reap what they sow for example certain sins may reap destruction in a person’s life. King David commited adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed……and as a result his baby died. A good parent also disciplines their children. Even since the new testament and the new covenant, if a person lives in sin and rebellion then s/he may end up reaping destruction in his/her life.Galatians 6v8 and Corinthians 5v5.

    DId you know that in the old testament only the true prophets of God brought messages of repentance? Whereas all the false prophets of baal brought messages that everybody wanted to hear – messages of prosperity. Makes you think, doesnt it.

    • savedByGrace // April 13, 2012 at 5:39 pm // Reply

      Hi anjie, In the past, I worked with missionaries going to and ministering at various churches. During those mission trips, I observed the difficulty of some local ministers on finances. In one church, the husband has to work on Sundays because the wife’s income from pastoring the church was not enough. Another pastor rationalized their financial difficulty by saying that they followed the great commisson “by faith” only hence they are experiences some challenges in their finances. There are negative comments against “wealth, health and success preaching” because some could not comprehend how prosperity preaching could face the reality of the slums of Brazil, Kenya, South Africa, Pakistan, China, Arab countries, Burma, Nepal, Sri Lanka, India, etc. In the natural, I agree. Preaching to these places on wealth, health and success seem not appropriate. It may not even work for the tired Israelites who were slaves in Egypt. Happily, preaching to them on wealth, health and success is not God’s only way. God gave the Israelites wealth, health and success when they left Egypt! About 2 million (or 3 million) Israelites were millionaires when they came out of Egypt (Ex12:35&36); no one was sick or feeble among them (Ps105:37). And while in Egypt they were slaves, in freedom some were promoted to leadership positions (Ex18:13~27) and in our generation, promotion is part of success…

      • It’s not about whether it is “appropriate” or not to preach the prosperity gospel to the poor. It’s about whether a lie is being preached to extort money from congregants. It’s about abusing the Bible to manipulate poeple into giving their money. The prosperity gospel is not biblical, otherwise Jesus would have preached it. I live in South Africa, I have seen how the poor “sow” all their money believing the 100 fold return and then go back home to sleep in their shack. It is an absolute disgrace that any pastor would give the poor such false hopes and threaten them to tithe so that they dont fall under an alleged curse while at home they can’t feed their family and sleep in a shack. Wouldn’t it be great if all the money that was “sowed” was used to feed all the poor in the church? My husband started his own business 3 years ago and we also went to a prosperity gospel church for almost a year and believed their lies and spoke “positive confessions” and “sowed financial seeds” while being threatened with a urse if we don’t tithe. Well where did it get us? Absolutely nowhere. His business has not picked up after 5 years and we are still in financial difficulties. Yes it’s easy to believe the prosperity message works when you are living a comfortable life already. But try it when you are poor and you will see it is a manipulation from the enemy.

      • hi anjie,
        i also live in south africa, and i know what it’s like to go to bed hungry, or live without electricity just because my family couldn’t afford it. however, i will say, that God is still a good God, and He still wants to bless us. i will always believe that. i will always believe that He is a Father who wants His children to be blessed and it’s not about a so-called ‘prosperity gospel,’ it’s about Jesus, and knowing that in Him lies everything you could ever need. everything. health, finances, goodness, success.. everything. knowing who Jesus is, and encountering Him, and out of that knowing who you are is what it’s about. His grace is sufficient for us. and He does over and above what we could ever think or imagine. i suppose you also have to have a revelation of this, because until you do, we’ll keep debating this. it is true that manipulation shouldn’t be used, but Jesus should be preached!!! He changes lives!!! He came to give us abundant life!!!!!!!!

      • savedByGrace // April 14, 2012 at 2:58 pm //

        In 1K17:9, the Lord told Elijah to go to Zarephath where the Lord commanded a widow to sustain him. (Note: the Lord already commanded the widow). However in v12, the widow refused to cook for Elijah and Elijah has to preach to her what the Lord commanded her to do. When she finally decided to cook for Elijah, “the barrel of meal wasted not, neither the cruise of oil fail (1K17:13&14) until the rain came. When her son died, the Lord revived him (1K17:17~22). A person’s acceptance or rejection of the good news: the poor need not remain poor and the sick need not remain sick (through Jesus’ poverty we might be rich and with His stripes we are healed). In a snap shot, within a certain time reference, there will always be poor with us (Matt26:11). Especially those who like the widow of Zarephath are slow to understand and accept the good news of the Lord for them. To remain poor is suggesting that God (and I say this reverently) is a big spiritual dictator who lined us the streets of the great city with pure gold while His people are suffering in poverty, being oppressed and defeated at all fronts.

      • savedByGrace // April 17, 2012 at 7:59 pm //

        Dearest anjie, Jesus did not preach prosperity. He literally wallowed in it. He demonstrated it instead of giving the people the 10 Steps to Prosper, 20 Ways to get Wealth, etc. In the feeding of the multitude (5000men in Matt14:13~21 and 4000men in Matt15:32~39), in the midst of lack (“but what are these among so many?” -Jn6:8&9) everyone was fed.
        Jesus blessed Peter with a net-breaking, boat-sinking load of fish after Peter allowed Jesus to preach from his boat (Lk5:1~11). Then the resurrected Christ again blessed Peter and company with so much fish that the night before they caught nothing (Jn21:1~14). Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today and forever (Heb13:8).
        Let us not run after the fish (money) but let money overtake us because Jesus removed the curse and became a curse for us (Gal3:13&14) so that the blessing of Abraham in Deut28:1~14 (not the curse in Deut28:15~68) might come upon us through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
        How can anyone give under the threat of a curse when we are exhorted in 2Cor9:7 to give not grudgingly or or necessity, for God loves a CHEERFUL giver. Indeed our Christian walk depends largely on whose teaching we sit under. If you have questions regarding your pastor’s messages, please write to Paul Ellis for the annointed response. Paul, hope it is ok.
        In the middle of Feb2012 we started a business without money invested and by Apr2012 we experienced a 30% growth in sales. Unbelievable? It is all because of Him!

      • Thank you “savbedbygrace” – I have heard all this before and tried it all before. I read all the books, went ot all the services, read all the scriptures, applied all the positive confessions, watched all the videos etc. IT DID NOT WORK. Now by my comments I may seem negative and unbelieving, but that is because it is now over 3 years later.If God wants ot help He will do so in His own timing.

        I think we should all be careful not to provide a skewed answer based only on the point of view we want ot prove…..(I could look for all the scriptures that prove that Jesus said money is not everytihng, and you can look for all the “blessing”scriptures). Both are needed for balance.

        Thank you for the replies. Every individual has their own experience.

      • savedByGrace // April 20, 2012 at 8:29 pm //

        You are welcome, anjie.
        Consider this scenario. You are outside the ICU and you can see the doctors trying to revive the one very dear to you for the past 3 minutes (3years?). Then the doctor looks at you and shakes his head as if saying they tried everything, IT DID NOT WORK! Behind the glass panel outside of the ICU, you frantically signal the doctor: TRY AGAIN! DO NOT GIVE UP! EVEN IF IT IS NOT WORKING, GIVE IT ANOTHER TRY!
        In Matt18, Jesus exhorted us to become like little children. Even if you say NO MORE, they will wait patiently at your doorstep expecting to receive. That is same as saying: “Well, the other children received their portion, THE NEXT ONE WILL BE MINE!”
        Paul Ellis pointed out in his earlier post entitled “Does God Give Bad Gifts?” that the Poverty Gospel is not Good News. It is a curse and not a gift. Part 2 of this series was entitled “Does God Give and Take Away?
        I suggest that instead of looking for scriptures that proved Jesus said that money is not everything, look for scriptures that prove that Jesus is everything. Jesus has no problem with us having money. He does not want money having us.

      • savedByGrace // April 20, 2012 at 8:34 pm //

        What man calls balance, God calls mixture which make Him sick as much as to puke! What a horrible thought: God can be sick! Read Paul Ellis’ post entitled “The Gospel Comes to Laodicea” where he touched on the issue of “balance”. I agree that every individual has his/her own experience. That’s the basic requisite of receiving from the Lord: your own salvation, your own protection, your own healing, your own provision, your own prosperity, so that you can testify of His goodness. When you are facing your “giant”, you have to kill your own bear and lion and acknowledge that it was the Lord who delivered you from those predators. Thereafter, you can destroy the giant, not by your own might, not by your power, but by the Spirit of the Lord.

  15. savedByGrace // April 13, 2012 at 7:57 pm // Reply

    Hi Paul,

    My apologies. I didn’t know that there’s a limit until I read your post “Is Adam Greater than Jesus?”

    I remembered my very long comments here and came back to check. Allow me to edit this.

    Thanks Paul

    • Hi SavedbyGrace. The story of the poor widow helping Elijah is a very specific circumstance involving a prophet of God, which I do not think you can just randomly apply across the board for every individual. Another thing: have you got any personal experience that “by His stripes you were healed?” Again, it is easy to say these things if you have not been in the situation yourself of believing for healing that “by His stripes you were healed”. I have been seeking a healing for my spine for 3 years…..and those word faith techniques did not work even though I had great faith and other people laying hands on me also had great faith! Even Reinhard Bonnke laid hands on me! Yet I have not yet received my miracle. Despite daily positive confessions etc etc. Have you tried this yourself? I also find it very interesting that there are numerous pastors, evangelist, and faith healers who themselves (as well as their family members) don’t get healed in this way when they are ill – surely they have even greater faith? One of my previous pastors had to go for back surgery. Other examples include: Joyce Meyer (who had surgery to have a canerous tumour removed even though she was a faith healer) and Fred Price (whose wife was ill and needed medical intervention even though he has enriched himself by milking his congregation with his so-called word faith techniques). If these things really worked then the hospitals would be empty as we all confess the magic words that “by His stripes you were healed”. Why is it that there is always a person in a wheelchair at a healing service whom people are either reluctant to pray for or who never ends up leaping out of his wheelchair healed despite being prayed for?

      • savedByGrace // April 17, 2012 at 5:24 pm //

        Dearest anjie, in the bible there were two persons that Jesus said have great faith and they will never come close to the people you said have great faith: Reinhard Bonnke, numerous evangelists and faith healers, Joyce Meyer, and Fred Price, including you. Jesus did not also commend His disciples/apostles as having great faith. Jesus said they are faithless (Lk9:1~10; 38~42) and this was after they cast out devils, healed the sick, and preached the kingdom to those who received them.
        The two persons who Jesus said have great faith were the Roman Centurion whose servant was sick and dying (Lk7:1~10) and the Canaanite woman whose daughter was grievously vexed by the devil (Matt15:1~28). Both were Gentiles and not qualified to receive the blessings intended for the Jews but they knew Jesus as He is and believed that He can do what man’s limited thinking say cannot.
        Happily, I declare that I do not have sickness (especially terminal illness) to experience God’s goodness. Everyday I am thankful that God prevents sickness to come near me and my family (Ps91:1~16). Oftentimes we are not aware that He does prevent diseases to come near us and failed to thank Him for the protection that He provided. Just for the sake of discussion, if in case I will feel sick, I know that He will reaffirm the healing provision that His finished work has provided by discerning His body (1Cor11:23~30). Look to Jesus (Heb12:2). He is the Healer.

      • savedByGrace // April 17, 2012 at 5:39 pm //

        Dearest anjie, Why David gathered 5 smooth stones when he needed only 1 to kill one giant (1Sam17)? In 1Sam22, while David was hiding in the cave Adullam, he was joined by about four hundred 3D Army: in DISTRESS, in DEBT, was DISCONTENTED: his brothers and his father’s house. These were the same army who earlier were afraid of Goliath, until the 17 year old shepherd boy killed him.
        Now, when they joined David and immersed themselves under the leadership of a giant-killer, they too became giant-killers. Sibbechai the Hushatite slew Sippai, a giant (1Chro20:4, 2Sam21:18); Elhanan son of Jahir slew Lahmi brother of Goliath (1Chro20:; 2Sam21:19); Jonathan son of Shimea, David’s brother, slew a giant (1Chro20:6&7, 2Sam21:20&21); Abishai son of Zeruiah killed Ishbi-benob son of a giant (2Sam21:16&17).
        The extra four smooth stones that David prepared were for the four giants and they too would have been killed earlier had they fought. David knew it was not about him, not about how great was his faith to fight. It was all because of his good opinion about the Lord (1Sam17:37), the One who will always deliver him from impossible situations.
        anjie, surround yourself with people who experienced healing from the Lord and believed He heals. Even if your faith is as small as the mustard seed (Lk17:6), with what little knowledge you have that God loves you, cares and died for you, start commanding: “SPINE, IN JESUS NAME BE RESTORED!” then don’t worry about it anymore.

      • savedByGrace // April 17, 2012 at 6:12 pm //

        Am I saying that after you commanded your spine to be restored will it be restored? I believe so, but if in case the discomfort still remains, continue commanding for it to be restored everytime you discern the Lord’s body (when you take the Holy Communion) as you remember His finished work. And importantly, rest on His faith not on your faith. As it is written, everything is possible to him who believes (Mk9:16~24), to Him whose faith never waivers.
        On one of the Sunday services, a member in our church collapsed after taking insulin for his diabetis. He is believing God for his healing by taking the Holy Communion often and at the same time taking his insulin shot. When he was sent to the hospital, the doctors found out that he was healed of his diabetis. He did not know when he was healed hence he continued taking insulin.

      • D bible says we’ll always have d poor among us. I beliv its cos some pple will neva comprehend all dat Jesus came to giv us.despite d great miracles God did 4 d isrealites dat generation stil didn’t enta d promised land cos of unbelief.Gods word is not 4 trial and error(let’s c if it works)its 4 beliving.Jesus said if u bliv u will c my glory.I was miraculiously healed of a broken pelvic bone after falling out of a moving vehicle I didn’t go to d hospital instead I kept speaking d word.I’m healed 2dy and its all cos of Jesus.

  16. Maybe it’s just because not everybody can have a high paying job! Maybe it’s just because we will always have illiterate people who couldn’t study to further their career. Or people couldn’t afford to go to university. Maybe it’s because there will always be people who have low paying jobs like cleaning, waitering, driving a bus, street-sweeping, being a butler, having jobs that have a low salary….or looking at biblical examples: a shepherd (eg David), a carpenter (eg Jesus), a fisherman (eg Peter). Interestingly the disciples lived modest lives and suffered from a lot of persecution.

    Do you really believe, (together with applying common sense) that it is possible in this world for every single person to be financially prosperous IF they ALL BELIEVED??

    • savedByGrace // April 20, 2012 at 8:45 pm // Reply

      Everyday we will always see cleaners, waiters, bus drivers, street sweepers, butlers, the low wage workers, shepherds like David, carpenters like Jesus and Peter the fisherman in the same way that Paul in 1Cor12:12~31 described the many membered body of Christ – the church. Understandably, not all will become high-paid generals. Some will be needed as the low-paid foot soldiers. And Paul went on to say that it pleased God for the foot to be the foot, for the hand to be the hand, etc. He asked, if the whole body be the eye, where is the hearing? If the whole body be the hearing, where is the smelling? Each one is complementary to each other. How then to equate the various positions with prosperity?
      I always have the difficulty with hypothetical examples: of people with no names, except for positions like cleaners, waiters, etc.; no problem given, then associate prosperity or poverty with the jobs they are doing. No record of what happened to them after the next few days, months, years.

    • savedByGrace // April 20, 2012 at 8:55 pm // Reply

      Paul Bergen suggest in Comment#7 of Paul Ellis’ post entitled “Speak to your Mountain“, to provide detailed account of God’s manifestation (maintain a chain of evidence). In the bible, we have such recording (some unrecorded, Jn20:27~31; Jn21:25) of before and after, healing and prosperity:
      1) 2K:1~14 Naaman the leper was healed. If you bump into him tomorrow, he is no longer a leper. Are we saying that there will be no more lepers? No! One of them found his way when Jesus came down from the mountain after giving a sermon (Matt8:1~3) and He healed him.
      2) 1K17:9~22 the Zarephath widow experienced prosperity during the time of famine.
      3) Jn9:1~27 records that the blind beggar you see on the street today was healed by Jesus. Tomorrow, he will not be joining the other blind beggars in the street.
      You might say that all those stories in the bible are true. But it could be that God’s power is not effective now because it is not manifesting on you. God seems to be waiting for the right timing and it seems that He is taking His sweet time.

    • savedByGrace // April 20, 2012 at 9:02 pm // Reply

      I will give you the link to testimonies of people I know and I hope it will encourage you.
      1) John Gokongwei is a catholic in the Philippines (greatest speeck – success stories)
      2) Olivia Lum (success stories). She is a member of a Christian mega church in Singapore. Sadly, the portions of her testimony where she attributed her success to the Lord were edited heavily. She got the idea of the product when she went to Israel. Afterwards, when she applied for a loan she was challenged by the bank officer that her loan will be granted if the Dow Jones will rise (was deemed impossible at that time). The next day, the Dow Jones went up and she walked straight to the bank and demanded her loan. And the rest they say is history, and Olivia will say was all because of Jesus.
      With the accounts of before and after, it is easy to see what happened to them whether they remained as they were: cleaners, waiters, etc.

    • savedByGrace // April 20, 2012 at 9:10 pm // Reply

      By the way, the shepherd boy David became king. Peter the fisherman was actually rich and a businessman with partners in the fishing industry (Lk5:1~11) but they forsook all and followed Jesus. Jesus the carpenter is still in the business of building good relationships and re-building broken dreams and broken hearts of those who put their trust in Him.
      Jesus prophesied regarding the persecution of the believers for His sake (not because of their foolishness, robbery, murder, etc). And whether he believer lives or dies is dependent on what he/she declares. Prov18:21 says the life and death is just about 1 inch below our nose.
      Stephen was killed because he asked the Lord to receive his spirit (Acts7:58~60). Paul died after he declared that he was ready to be offered (2Tim4:6~8) but not before that despite all the beatings, stonings, etc (2Cor11:23~30) because of the ministry (Phil1:21~25).

    • savedByGrace // April 20, 2012 at 9:18 pm // Reply

      Without hesitation, I really believe that all can be financially prosperous and I like your condition: IF THEY ALL BELIEVE. That’s how we receive all the good from the Lord: by believing. The level of satisfaction may differ: Some will be satisfied with $100,000 while the millionaires still want to get a couple of millions to be satisfied.

    • Anjie, YES oh yes. Can you imagine?! The answer to the Lord’s prayer. “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” No one is sick or poor in heaven. If Everyone believed in Jesus as their personal savior and listen to the Holy Spirit all the time then right now here on earth that’s just what our earth would be like, Heaven. We would all share and take care of each other. Jesus said that when we did for another person that we were doing it as unto Him. We would encourage each other in giving and sharing and God out of His bounty would continue to bless us. He has enough for ALL of us don’t you think?

      • Perhaps you should go with your great faith to all the hospitals in your area and pray for all the sick so that all the hospital beds would be empty! And go to all the schools for the physically disabled to pray for them so that they may all be healed and go to mainstream education.

      • savedByGrace // June 13, 2012 at 4:15 pm //

        Hi Anjie,
        You may wish to correspond to brandon hutzell who personally know a pastor who emptied a small hospital in Africa in one day (Comment #43 of “Does God Give and Take Away?” by Paul Ellis).

  17. Maybe God is allowing people to go through difficult times as a process of purging or judgement or testing. He did it to Job (who lost everything). He also did it to David (whose baby died as a result of his sins).

    • savedByGrace // April 20, 2012 at 9:27 pm // Reply

      Hi anjie,
      I will not add to what has been discussed at length by Paul Ellis in the various posts.
      Regarding the story of Job, Paul Ellis has a great post entitled “Understanding the Book of Job – by Tom Tompkins.” Read also his earlier posts entitled “Does God Give Bad Gifts?” and “Does God Give and Take Away?” that also mentioned David. Faith is nothing more than having a good opinion of God (got this from Pastor Joseph Prince). In the case of David, God will always be there to deliver him from impossible situations. For the Roman Centurion and the Canaanite woman it is seeing Jesus as He is and believing that He can do what the limited thinking of man say cannot. Just a food for thought (I read this somewhere): “For those who undestand, no explanation is needed. For those who don’t, no explanation is possible.” Enjoy your reading and be blessed!

    • These are old covenant examples…we live in new covenant times…Jesus took the form of a servant even though He was rich…to me this is the model…do we serve? And for the baby who died… the new covenant clearly states, the tower that fell and killed those was not because they were worse than others…the person born blind was not because of sin…it was so the glory of God was to be manifest.

    • Again I will say: I believe Jesus Christ is alive today and still heals and performs miracles. I have also had contact with people who have healed the sick and emptied hospital beds. I have spoken to them on the phone and personally. I DO BELIEVE!
      HOWEVER: you are not getting my point that NOT ALL ARE BEING HEALED when following the prospewrity gospel formula of positive confession. That is my point. Otherwise there would literally be no sick poepl left on planet earth.

      • savedByGrace // June 29, 2012 at 4:00 pm //

        Hi Anjie,
        I am glad that after talking to people who healed the sick and emptied hospital beds your belief is strengthened that Jesus Christ is alive today and still heals and performs miracles. But instead of jumping into the water of healing and getting wet, swimming in its abundance and freshness, you prefer to remain at the dry edge of the river bank saying NOT ALL ARE (being) HEALED.
        In John 5:1~9 is an account of a man who was impotent for 38 years who together with a multitude of sick people like him had been at the pool of Bethesda waiting to be healed. However, only the first one to step into the pool gets healed when an angel at a certain season troubles the water at the pool.
        This man knew that NOT ALL ARE HEALED but he did not lose hope for his own healing and had been there long time waiting for someone to bring him to the water of healing.
        Unlike in the account of the woman with an issue of blood for 12 years (Mk 5:25~34) where the woman believed that Jesus can heal, even His garment, this impotent man did not know Jesus and so did not believe that Jesus can heal. But Jesus healed him!
        Anjie, you are in a better position to receive your healing because you believe that Jesus is alive today and still heals and performs miracles. Rest on His love for your and declare/claim the healing of your spine each time you take the Holy Communion.

      • Gerardo Jerry Grado // November 5, 2019 at 9:14 am //

        Do you understand that the foolishness of your statement is tantamount to saying..if Jesus could really save, there would be no lost people on earth. if you aren’t connecting your faith to HIS GRACE…not your faith to your faith..which is what I have gathered from your past posts…not faith in your in your in your wishful thinking. or faith in any other cheap albeit well meaning substitute..then you will not connect to God’s grace.

  18. Anjie, I love this website and its emphasis on grace. But I cannot go with the present discussion and the efforts to justify the prosperity doctrine. Believe me, you are not going to convince anyone. As Demosthenes said: “Nothing is easier than self deceit, for what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true.” If books like Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hanegraaff, A Different Gospel by Dan R. McConnell, God Wants You Rich and Other Enticing Doctrines by Florence Bulle, The Agony of Deceit by Michael Horton and others, We Let Our Son Die by Larry Parker (the saddest of the lot), and countless other well researched books by godly men and women do not convince someone, then neither will you. Instead of getting involved in debates that are not going to go anywhere, praise God that he has given you insight and delivered you from an unbiblical and unworkable approach to Christianity that ultimately breeds condemnation and self-doubt (Why am I not healed? Why am I not prosperous? etc.) – ironically the very thing this website is against. Btw, this does not mean that I do not love the rest of the teaching here, that I do not have appreciation for Joseph Prince or that I do not believe absolutely in God’s goodness, healing and provision – IF AND WHEN HE SO DESIRES.

    • savedByGrace // June 6, 2012 at 9:50 pm // Reply

      Hi naturalchurch,
      Prosperity needs no justification. It stands true whether we believe it or not because in heaven there is no lack, no poverty. And the bible reminds us that it is the Lord God who gives power to get wealth (Deut 8:18) – and come to think of it, how to get wealth if we are always sick and flat on our back? Unfortunately, when we do not have the manifestation of God’s goodness in our life (health and wealth), condemnation and self-doubt presents itself ready to justify and give comfort. Other people with similar experiences provide assurances that you are not alone in your pathetic state. It’s entirely your choice if you lock arms with them in beggarly fellowship and negate the blessings that the finished work of Jesus Christ is freely giving you (Ro 8:32).
      God dispenses His goodness, healing and provision just as the sun is always beaming its rays upon mankind. Have a good opinion of God. Remember, there is nothing wrong with God, there is nothing wrong with His Word, and by the blood of Jesus Christ there is nothing wrong with you. Cast out condemnation, doubt, fear, anxiety and every thought that separates you from the love of Christ and rest in His love and receive by faith through the finished work of Christ all that God supplies according to His riches in glory (Phil 4:19).

      • Hi SavedByGrace. As I mentioned to Anjie, if you wish to believe this about the gospel then that is what you will read into Scripture and no debate will convince you otherwise. That is why I have mostly given up trying to prove to believers such as yourself what the Bible teaches on this matter. My ministry nowadays is devoted to teaching people about the love of God, the Christ life, God’s eternal purpose and the blessed age to come, and I pretty much regret all the time wasted on debates such as this one. However, you mentioned something that I cannot ignore: “… in heaven there is no lack, no poverty…” Indeed. That’s the whole point. But you are not in heaven, and so in this world you will have much tribulation, as our Lord taught us. Your spirit has been resurrected, but not yet your body or your environment. That is why a second resurrection awaits us, and in that day both our bodies and the world will be renewed, glorified and clothed with immortality. If you wish to assume that the blessings of the atonement includes healing and prosperity in this world to the very degree that it offers justification, then you should be consistent and join the prosperity preachers who teach that we can stop aging if we have enough faith (We have some of them here in South Africa). If ever things turn out differently in your life to your anticipation of health and wealth, then contact me. If ever severe trauma or inexplicable loss come your way, mail me. Then we’ll have a most fruitful conversation in the Lord. I’m not “speaking this over you”, by the way. If you are in a ministry where you preach what you believe, and receive money from people, chances are that you will prosper exceedingly until your dying day. Many true blessings for you, my friend, and remember that to preach godliness as a means to gain is to be “corrupted in mind and depraved of the truth”, according to Paul in 1 Tim.6.

      • savedByGrace // June 8, 2012 at 2:15 pm //

        Hi naturalchurch,
        Me and my family are blessed through the finished work of Christ and no curse from the likes of Balaam (Nu22:12) can change that.
        As I read your feed, I feel for you as a neighbor on the other side of the fence, to whom Christ died likewise. Indeed, I am looking forward to a fruitful discussion in the future not because of severe trauma from inexplainable loss but because I want you to enjoy the same blessings that we are enjoying from God’s abundant riches in glory. No discussion (you term it “debate”) can convince you of God’s goodness but surely tangible evidence can change your mind.
        We receive tithes in the church but we follow the Apostle Paul’s “tent-making” for our pastors / church leaders. We choose not to receive any salary from the church (Jn10:12&13) although we can (1Tim5:18). Currently, the church is financially sound and ministering God’s goodness to the needy and nurturing them to become productive, able to help others like them, pointing them to Christ.
        Claiming the blessings of Abraham (Gal3:13&14), we started a business without money invested and as a quick update, we ranked No. 14 on gross sales when we started, now we are No. 9! We ranked No. 5 on positive growth before but now we are No. 1! It’s all because of Jesus!
        You may not call it prosperity. Anyway, the term prosperity exists as contrast to poverty. Come to think of it, in heaven there is no prosperity, only abundance.

  19. Wow I did not realize that there is a fresh discussion here about prosperity. I am from a 3rd world country, I tried living in the slums and was born from a very poor family. One thing I know God is good and He does not want me to be poor. If He wants people to be poor to teach them humility then why not all people started as poor (Please do not say He works in mysterious ways). Whether you love Pastor Prince and what he preaches or not, is really your choice but I hope you you understand that everything is all about Jesus. The more we look to Him the more we understand what His will is for humanity.

  20. Does this mean that if we don’t have prosperity and success, there is something wrong with our faith?
    That’s how it kind of sums up to me…and I believe a lot would think that, too.

    • tacticianjenro, there is not one simple answer all the time. It could be lack of faith but it could be wrong doctrine, etc. Sometimes for us to have enough faith to receive we have to have a revelation of God’s word. My suggestion is to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you as you read the scriptures. When I am searching for truth and understanding I ask the Holy Spirit to teach me the truth, whether I like it or not. This” whether or not” is just for me because I have a rebellious streak and I tend to hold to my convictions. I came from a mixture of law and grace. All I know about you is that God loves you, You are His beloved and He only wants good for you. A seed of the knowledge of God’s love and goodness has been planted in you, water it with the word and see the fruit it bears.
      It will only be good fruit, sweet and rich with flavor. God Bless, Deb

  21. Joseph Prince is a great teacher of the word. Some many people take apart of what he says and judge it against their own lives and see that they don’t agree. What you should be doing is judging it against what Gods word says. Joseph Princes’s teaching is always and only God centred. His preaching is about revealing Christ in his fullness to the church. But take Joseph Prince out of the equation and try reading the bible and the new covenant for yourself. I can not say why there are staving and people dying from disease around the world for christians. But if you do not know your promises in God then how can you live them? When was the last time when you saw someone walking down the road who was sick or poor you stepped out of you self absorbed empathetic mindset and actually prayed for them or even gave them a jumper or some money for food. I myself am guilty of this so don’t for one second think I’m judging. But how bout the church as a whole got off there bum and started being the church. As for what the bible says about prosperity…

  22. Hey Paul,
    Just stumble upon your blog, and am enjoying it. Truth be told, I bought JP’s book and ripped the cover off, and pasted the cover of another more “acceptable” bible scholar popular with my tribe so that no one will know that I am reading it. I wonder how many are like me, who have to hide when we want to check something out for ourselves, because to let others know what we are doing would mean instant shunning and possibly expulsion?

    • Haha! That’s priceless Bob.

      • That’s why I love my Kindle! I can read all sorts of books in secret. I would love to have a full bookshelf of “offensive” materials though… Andrew Farley, Paul Ellis, Andrew Wommack, Joseph Prince…
        Maybe some day I’ll have that bookshelf out in the open when I have a more solid understanding of Grace. There are some in my own family that would think I’ve gone off the deep end. (And I have actually, but they would see it as heresy)

  23. I’m new to the new covenant crowd and the significant number of guys I’m now starting to notice who preach prosperity have me puzzled. I don’t even know where to start. I guess just with Jesus himself. What did he have to do with prosperity and success? Didn’t he say it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven? Didn’t Paul warn Timothy that the desire for money was a temptation and a trap that led to ruin and destruction? Aren’t we told in Hebrews to be content with what we have? Doesn’t it distract from and even discredit the gospel? “Look at those Christians chasing the almighty dollar like an idol just like all the rest of us, hypocrites…” Like I said, I very puzzled and more than a little discouraged. I’ve more and more begun to identify myself with the “grace crowd” but now I’m not so sure.

    • Hi Henry,
      I understand your puzzlement. The so-called health and wealth gospel is a distortion of the true gospel. Don’t let the abuses of others taint your view of grace. Just because some in the grace camp are running after the dollar doesn’t mean that the gospel of grace is false or wrong. There are plenty outside the grace camp who are running after the dollar too.

      As you say, the desire for riches is a snare (1 Tim 6:9). But that does not mean that the desire for poverty is a good thing. Indeed, poverty is part of curse (see Deu. 28). It is utterly pagan to assume that the poorer you are the holier you are. This is asceticism.

      Money, or mammon, certainly has the power to dominate those who lust for it, but the one who is resting in the Lord and trusts Him for his provision is free from such bondage.

      • Nina Tomasieski // December 12, 2012 at 2:23 am //

        I have listened to Joseph Prince for quite awhile now, and, in fact, he’s the reason I’m back in church today. I must tell you all that in all the tapes or shows I’ve listened to, I’ve NEVER heard Joseph Prince say that being under grace is a license to sin. In fact, he goes to great lengths to dispel that thought. When you are under grace, you want to live right, you want to be more and do more in all areas of your life because you LOVE Jesus Christ and are so grateful for his mercy and goodness. But when you do sin, you confess that you have done so and that you will try to do better and then pick yourself up, dust off your shoes, so to speak, and keep marching down that road that’s been mapped out by Christ. No more constant condemnation because you know the price has been paid in full and that while we are human, we will err, but keeping your eyes on our Lord and what He’s done for you and I, helps us to move forward in our faith and not backwards because we always feel condemned. God bless Joseph Prince for his message of Grace!!!!

  24. John said Jesus came to give life in all its abundance but he was boiled in a pot of oil. Now that was prefaced by the thief comes to steal kill and destroy but lets not forget this was the disciple Jesus loved!
    Paul was beheaded! Andrew crucified! James was stoned to death! Herod cut off James son of Zebedee’s head! Philip was crucified! Peter was crucified upside down! Thomas who came to India was the thanksgiving turkey after a javelin match! You think they missed Joseph Prince’s book “Destined to Reign”?! :p

    • Chris, do you have a point?

      • I think Chris’ point is that all these disciples of Christ were not rewarded with a life of material prosperity, wealth or comfort… but with the quality and depth of abundant life that most never experience, because we’re not willing to sacrifice our own way. Christ was REAL to them. If you asked them, they would have said they were rich. And aside from that, Christ never sought material wealth, never called on angels to deliver him from physical torture…. if he is our example, we are to entrust ourselves to a loving Father who knows best.

      • Paul,

        You seem like a solid guy. I just stumbled onto your blog and upon reading your bio, I have great cause to praise God for your ministry. I haven’t read any of your other articles, nor have I followed your full body of work in the ministry, so I am in no place to make any snap judgments. But I do have a comment and a question.

        I confess that before reading your article, I simply assumed JP’s critics’ opinions that he is a prosperity gospel preacher. However, upon reading this article, I had the exact same response as you did: “sounds reasonable to me.” All the quotes you provided were solid theologically. This has reminded me to not be so hasty in labeling JP’s ministry one way or the other, just by what other people say. So for that added perspective, I sincerely thank you. With that said, I wish your article was more balanced by not only offering the potential good (which you did so well) but also offering the potential dangers. The fact is, God’s material blessings toward us is such a small part of the gospel. The main point of the gospel is exactly what John the Baptist and Jesus himself preached: “Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand” (Matt. 3:2; 4:17). And herein lies the danger: new converts coming to Christ not with repentance, but with hopes that God will materially bless them. I think JP’s message can be helpful to the already-believers. But it is very dangerous in evangelism. Coming to Christ because of the lure of health and financial blessing undermines what conversion is. It is an appeal to the flesh. Something supernatural must happen for regeneration to be authentic. And what is more supernatural than for God to change natural man’s heart in such a way that he says, “Jesus, I don’t care if I must pick up my cross, I don’t care if I must suffer, I don’t care if people revile me, I just want you!” I’m wondering if you would agree that that is a danger to this kind of message. Would an unbeliever walking into his service learn how to come into genuine fellowship with God via repentance?

      • If you would agree that that is a potential danger to JP’s ministry, would you prayerfully consider adding that concern or warning in this article, or any other you write in the future regarding these types of ministries?

  25. jacob, Jesus said He would never turn away any who came to Him (john 6:37). He didn’t give a list of what reasons were legitimate or not… but simply said, those who the Father gives me will come. do you not know that the goodness of God leads men to repentance? (rom 2:4)

    the only danger an unbeliever would experience walking into one of jp’s services would be changing his mind about Who God is (which is what repentance is) and falling head-over-heels in love with Jesus!

    • Even if someone came with the idea that God is like some big Santa Claus that gives us whatever we want whenever we want it wouldn’t the indwelling Holy Spirit teach them the truth of God’s provisions? Life have enough trouble on it’s own God doesn’t add to them or only adopt those who embrace the “tough” life. Being a Christian is for wimps too not just tough guys who thrive on hardship.

  26. It might be very beneficial to this discussion if the critics of JP actually heard him or read his books before lumping him in the pile with all ‘prosperity preachers.’ Just because JP’s ‘success’ message is discussed in this article, doesn’t mean that is the whole of his ministry. JP is one of the best preachers of the Gospel of Grace in the world today, and a preacher of the ‘whole counsel of God’ – helping the church to see Jesus throughout the entire Bible.

    ‘Giving to get’ by sowing seed (especially into a preacher’s ministry), tithing or other means is legalism, not grace. This is the error of many ‘Prosperity Preachers’ today who fleece the flock. Ironically, I hear the same legalism, traditions of men, and Old Covenant beliefs in many of the replies from those who criticize the prosperity message. The pot calling the kettle black?

    Regarding JP, Jennie says it right – “The only danger an unbeliever would experience walking into one of jp’s services would be changing his mind about Who God is (which is what repentance is) and falling head-over-heels in love with Jesus!” I would add that this same ‘danger’ will affect BELIEVERS as well! We certainly need a truthful understanding of Abba, Daddy, in our churches!

  27. Paul, Thank you for all your efforts to help the body understand the scriptures. I have so much confidence in your writings. You are a Godsend to me, trying to rightly divide the word, since realizing that I have not been doing it for 30 years. You along with Andrew Farley, Andrew Womack and J. Prince are my go to resources when I am exploring a subject . Not saying that I agree with you all on everything, sometimes it takes a while to sink in, and at other times my spirit agrees with one or the other. You guys are mostly in the same page. But one issue that really bothers me is the subject of Tithing under the new covenant. I have read that you think it is under Law, I know that Andrew Farley feels the same way, but JP supports it as something we should still do. This really bothers me, since I have such respect for his revelations in teaching. You seem to recommend him highly, what is your take on this? Maybe the issue is not that important, but it leaves me feeling unsettled about JP.

    • Cathy, I have never written a post on tithing, not because I don’t have views on the subject but because tithing has become the “third rail” of grace preaching and I’ve got better things to do than stick a fork in the socket. (How’s that for a mixed metaphor!) That said, when those who say we must give are the same people who make their living off the giving off others, I think there is a credibility issue.

      • You confirmed my uneasiness, thanks, Paul.

      • Cathy, regardless of what you believe about tithing, I wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Joseph Prince is an incredible Grace minister, so if he’s helping you I wouldn’t change just because he has taught on tithing. He presents tithing as only for those who have a revelation about it, not as a requirement for God’s blessings as most preachers say. Therefore, you should get your own revelation on tithing settled in your heart and follow that. Don’t let the subject become the deciding factor on whether or not you can receive teaching or ministry from someone. Keep listening to JP and keep tithing or not according to your own conscience. But, JP’s integrity on tithing is honorable, in my opinion, because he doesn’t compromise god’s Grace for the sake of money. His church members are financially blessed because of Grace, not because of tithing.

      • I do not see how one can avoid a question on tithing when discussing grace.Issues of tithing and grace are inextricably linked in the minds of believers and the question “should we still tithe?” Is an important one for many and is bound to come up.I respect your right(after all its your blog)to choose to avoid the question but that could make you look evasive.

    • I agree.Tithe teaching seems to undermine grace teaching.Preachers often argue becoz it was before the law ie Abraham was under grace and melchkezadek was a type of Christ and christ is our high priest we should tithe.However, God nowhere in the text tells Abraham to tithe, it was purely voluntary.Also nowhere does it say that Abraham became rich becoz he tithed.In fact he was wealthy beforehand.Additionally,the text does not indicate he did it on a regular basis or that it was off his regular income but was off the spoils of war.The kicker is that he gave 10% to melchezadek,paid the wages of his mercenaries and returned the other approx 90% to the kings so that he kept none of it for himself!!So when I hear teachers like JP argue we should follow Abe’s example and insinuate that god will prosper us if we tithe and then teach Jesus only can justify I am tempted to think his logic is seriously flawed becoz nobody today is following his example at all not even JP!!Other than that I enjoy his teaching!!

  28. Hey guys, I have a positive attitude toward Joseph Prince. I love the gospel (not the prosperity gospel); just the gospel of the grace of God in Jesus Christ. There is one area of concern when I listen to Prince though, and it is his over-realized eschatology. If I am diagnosed with cancer, I am called to pray and trust God for healing, knowing that whatever befalls me is for his glory, and that my healing is absolutely inevitable. However, the form of the healing could be a resurrected body, which we will receive the return of Christ.

    • chrisvanrooyen // April 20, 2013 at 4:45 pm // Reply

      I believe that healing hinges on belief and sometimes God just heals. In most church healing meetings you will hear, do you believe God can heal you. What a ridiculous statement. I do not believe you will be healed because you believe God can heal you. I believe you are healed when you believe that God wants to heal you not tomorrow but immediately. It is one thing to confess something, but to really believe that is a different matter.
      This leads on to realized eschatology I will answer this by asking a question . What made Jesus so frustrated that he cried in frustration at Lazarus’s rising. His first response to his disciples was that their FRIEND Lazarus was sleeping. He then after their arguing that he was wrong and Lazarus was dead agrees with them. John say,s he now spoke plainly and told them Lazarus was dead ? Jesus then meets Martha outside the camp he is distraught his only comfort for her this .he tells her he is life and whoever believes in him will never die and questions her Eschatology.

      • You believe that healing hinges on belief. If that is true then every instance of sickness, by your account, exists because a person has a lack of faith. So, Paul had a bodily ailment in Gal. 4:13 because he had a lack of faith? Paul had a thorn in the flesh because he had a lack of faith? (Some say we do not know if he had a sickness, but that point is irrelevant because he had a thorn, not a popsicle. It hurt, that is why the toughest apostle begged God to take it away three times.) Did timothy’s stomach hurt because he had a lack of faith?

        If so, then why didn’t God tell Paul that the purpose of his thorn was his lack of faith (instead of to keep him humble). Why didn’t Paul tell the Galatians that he had a lack of faith and was therefore sick, rather than telling them that his sickness was meant to test them. Why didn’t Paul tell Timothy to have more faith, rather than “drink some wine.” I will post a few verses that should influence your eschatology in the next post (word-constraints).

    • chrisvanrooyen // April 21, 2013 at 10:04 am // Reply

      To add I agree with everything you have said but believe we are called to believe in the unseen the real reality and not the illusion we live in.
      Visited your site,great arguments and good material one can use thanks.

    • chrisvanrooyen // April 21, 2013 at 5:24 pm // Reply

      Faith is a Gift from God. if you had Faith as small as a mustard seed you would be moving mountains. Belief is as much as we can do on our own. It takes more Faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in a creator. Inclusion of one thing does not exclude everything else, I said I believe sometimes God just heals. No Reason. I do not presume to know why a person is not healed, you presume this because I have given one reason that I believe God does heal. You have said that the healing may take the form of a resurrected body I agree with you.

      Maybe the only sickness God sees is sin and the sinners are the sick ones we should be praying for maybe praying for a sick believer is a indication of lack of belief that they cannot die and will never die, but were dead and now have eternal life. Maybe that is why a priest could not mourn or have anything to do with the dead. Maybe we should be mourning for the walking dead.

  29. @passion2knowgod…….
    In reference to your post about Paul’s thorn in the flesh read this topic by Andrew Wommack here….
    I think he explains the more correct understanding of what that “thorn” is understood to be. Hint, it was not a physical affliction as much of the “Religious” world understands. IMO And this is not just AWs opinion but many others as well.

    As far as healing goes either you believe Christ bore our sickness and diseases on the Cross or you don’t. Your Faith can only be as great as your understanding. Do you “Profess” this truth or do you “Possess” this truth? Do you understand what authority as a Believer you have in Him and that you can “speak to your mountain?”

    • Well Felix, I posted a bit more, but I will say this: first, I mentioned more than the thorn in the flesh; Galatians 4:13 is a physical bodily ailment so that won’t work there. And, second, when Christ bore our sickness, did he do so in such a way that he purchased for us resurrection bodies. 1 Cor. 15 says that he did; but, we don’t have those yet. We don’t possess all that Christ died to purchase for us. Third, If Paul had a bodily ailment (and he did), and Jesus bore his sickness on the cross, then his faith was only as great as his understanding; and you end up attributing more faith to tv preachers than the apostle himself. Fourth, yes, I believe Jesus bore our sicknesses on the cross. As C.S. Lewis said, Christ did not suffer so that we would no longer suffer, but he suffered to give our suffering purpose and an eventual resolution. The fullness of Christ’s work on the cross will be enjoyed in the hereafter (with resurrected bodies). Which is why, in this life, we are called to be made like Christ in his death by sharing in his suffering. God is using our suffering. Which is why Paul said, that we, the body, are filling up ‘what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ (Col. 1:23).

      • chrisvanrooyen // April 22, 2013 at 8:12 am //

        Jesus suffered on the cross not in vain but to achieve a purpose if we also suffer or accept suffering to achieve that purpose then we share with him.This is to be made like Christ in his death.
        Any other suffering accepted is for mans glory and does not impress me.

        As for Col 1;23 I suggest you source a few bible scholars and messianic Jewish scholars of the scriptures and see what they say and then investigate yourself. Scholar I define as someone who has devoted at least 40 years to the study of the text and not theology or doctrine.

      • chrisvanrooyen: 40 years to the study of the text itself to be a scholar? Jesus would not have fit that presupposition. I have looked at quite a few scholars other than him as well. First, I have consulted scholars. John Piper, for one, wrote an entire book on that one verse. I have looked at quite a few scholars other than him as well. Lastly, a good scholar must do theology and doctrine alongside of a study of the text, because the text demands it. A scholar who doesn’t believe that Col. 1 is the word of God for example, is hardly as trustworthy as one who does.

        FYI: I take the verse to mean that the gospel of the suffering servant is propagated through a suffering church. Our suffering is the catalyst by which the Holy Spirit is finishing the mission of the global spread of the gospel. Christ work is finished. Our mission is to take that finished mission of Christ to the world at great costs to ourselves (most of the time); the latter is the affliction that is lacking.

      • Hi Passion
        You seem to have now made clearly the distinction between just plain suffering and suffering for a cause, now that you have done that, can we go back to your previous response. You mentioned cancer how does cancer that is not healed help to achieve Christs work. How does it help the global spread of the gospel.

        There are a least 20 different interpretations of this verse you chose the one that would indicate that Jesus,s affliction was incomplete, all that I know that accept this interpretation have to build some type of mystery that we can not understand around this interpretation to justify it. This includes John Piper .You contradict yourself you say Christs work is finished but his affliction was lacking is this part of the mystery.What are you really saying. Would you be happy to tell God that you completed his Sons afflictions.

        Even accepting this interpretation how does cancer fit the brief. Are you saying that all suffering of believers advances the spread of the gospel.

        A good textual scholar takes all theology and doctrine from all view points into consideration but in his investigation of the text gives preference to none.He without bias illustrates the strengths and weaknesses of all views. He leaves you to decide. Although he understands most view points of different theology and doctrine they are not his area of study. His work is never complete.

      • First, I don’t think that I am contradicting myself at all. Christ’s afflictions are incomplete in the sense that more afflictions are required in order to accomplish God’s purposes. Christ’s afflictions, in the salvific and substituionary sense are complete. Now, whether that view is textually faithful is up for further discussion, but I have not flat out contradicted myself.

        As for the question of cancer, and the purpose of suffering. God’s purposes in bringing all that Christ died to inaugurate to completion includes suffering. So, if we define the mission in a God-centered way, I would say that cancer that is not healed glorifies God like this: “More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us (Romans 5:3-5).

        This is not a mystery. God is using our suffering for his own good purposes. Understanding all of God’s purposes at the present time, that is the mystery.

        A look at the book of Job would also yield an understanding of suffering. God is the one who was in control of Job’s suffering (made clear in 1:22; 2:10), and when Job saw God face to face all the complaining ceased.

        I would add in the verses that talk about God testing us and refining us through fire and using that to shape us and conform us to Christ’s image (Share in his suffering).

      • Cutting and pasting extensive quotes from others show lack of original thought. Since this thread is neither interesting nor relevant to the post above, I’m ending this. Read E2R’s comment policy if you want to know why.

      • Christ suffered yes, but it never says Christ was ever physically sick or had any disease. Suffering for Christ has NOTHING to do with sickness or disease, it has to do with persecution, getting punished for doing good. Jesus said you will suffer and be mistreated for my Names sake, they will even kill you, he never once said you will have to endure sickness and disease for my names sake, because sickness and disease has NOTHING to do with being In Christ.Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
        Mar 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

  30. Excuse me, Felix. Do you suggest that believing that Christ bore our sicknesses and diseases on the cross will actually always manifest as physical healing in the here and now?

    • It doesn’t matter what I believe. What do YOU believe?

      • It does matter what you believe. Your view (if you indeed believe what I have suggested in my question) has led to more pain, condemnation, confusion, and deaths in the church of Jesus Christ than just about any other erroneous doctrine. It is easily refuted Biblically, and so it does matter what you believe, especially if you are spreading your views. Millions of Christians worldwide believe that the appearance of the Kingdom of God takes place in two phases, the first spiritual, resulting in the regeneration of the spirit and the birth of the church of Jesus Christ, and the second physical and environmentally, resulting in the redemption of our unredeemed flesh and the renewal of creation. When God sovereignly heals people, he does so as a preview, foretaste, shadow and type of our inheritance to come, not as an act of redemption on the same par as our salvation. And so we cannot CLAIM it as though it is a God-given right. I suggest you consider the views of people like Joni Eareckson Tada, who has served God faithfully for decades and encouraged millions of people worldwide whilst bound to a wheelchair. And then compare her to someone like Hobart Freeman whose faith teachings have been linked, directly and indirectly, to the the deaths of almost a hundred people.

  31. I have been seeking God for physical healing for nearly 5
    years now. It’s been 5 years of ongoing and worsening physical pain (associated with depression). I have attended numerous healing services and followed all the advice given. Even well known evangelists such as Reinhard Bonnke and Curry Blake have physically laid hands on me. My faith was sometimes great and sometimes small. All I can say is that I have learnt this: God is sovereign and He will heal WHEN and HOW He chooses. Through this difficult time I have grown closer to Him and I have had to deal with a type of death of the flesh and ego. My character flaws have been exposed and I have experienced a type of purging and cleansing. At this point I have submitted to God and I have stopped trying to fight for a healing myself. I have stopped and asked myself: what is it that God wants me to learn through this? I have not given up hope that God will heal me. But I do know this: God is not a giant casino slot machine in the sky who spews out blessings and prosperity upon our demand!

    • Anjie – I had depression for 30 years and now it’s gone.

    • Hi Anjie 🙂
      I am stirred deeply in my heart to give a little knowledge to help you in your healing.
      1. Healing is a process that takes time. Miracle, however, is instantaneous. They are opposites.
      2. Miracles ARE EXCEPTIONS and will only activates in a) crisis situation and b) when unbelief is at a lesser level than our faith (Matthew 13:58, Matthew 17:19-20).

      From Matthew 17:19-20, know that we can have both faith and unbelief co-exists in our hearts at the same time. The key to enable God’s healing power to START flowing from our born again spirit to our physical body is WHOLEHEARTEDNESS (Jeremiah 29:13) and constant renewing of the mind by the words of Life (*be ye transformed= healing progresses continually* Romans 12:2)

      3. Healing process through meditating on the Word (taking time) IS THE NORMAL WAY God’s power works (Psalm 107:20, Proverbs 4:20-22). This is the core understanding of the parable of the sower. Based on the parable, it is up to each person to determine the results that they may get by choosing the conditions of their heart. See also Matthew 13:15.

      4. God’s power does not fluctuate. And it is already deposited in our born again spirit. It is not in heaven. But it is in Christ who dwells in us. (*already blessed*all spiritual blessings Ephesians 1:3)

      5. There are 2 types of faith- our natural faith (believe in Jesus) and God’s faith (live by the faith of the Son of God- Galatians 2:20, faith OF Christ Philippians 3:9). Hence ‘revealed from (our) faith to (His) faith’. That is how the JUSTified shall live.

      It is a 2 way process- Process 1- we abide (mind and hearts believe) IN Him and
      Process 2- HIS WORDS ABIDE (becomes alive as we meditate) IN US (our hearts and minds).
      And 1 more before I finish- our confidence level should begin from the resisting the smallest obstacle. We WORK OUT salvation by resisting the smallest ones first- flus, fevers, headaches, stomach aches. If we could not maintain the faith of God (BEAR/CARRY the fruit-Faith) for at least 5 minutes, then it is impossible to to defeat greater sickness/ pain. Start small to BUILD UP the strength of the heart before even attempting to resist medium ones. God bless.

  32. @ Felix:: if you have experienced a healing from God it would be great if you could share about it here. It would carry more weight.

  33. People that find pride in suffering or sacrifice and overcome it have eternal victory.

    Sacrifice was not required only grace and mercy.

    The door to prosperity and success.

  34. Dana Roberts // June 1, 2013 at 1:28 am // Reply

    Watched Prince’s interpretation on Matthew 14:24-33. In Jesus’ day great Jewish teachers, did not argue. They merely offered another interpretation. Jews today often say, “On the other hand . . .” So let me offer my hand in the matter of storms and seas. Prince’s focus is on Jesus helping us overcome finances, disease, depression, sickness. We have to keep our eyes on Jesus to overcome. He even provides proof by saying that the fourth watch is the darkest part of the day. “On the other hand” . . . Midnight is the darkest. Anyone who is awake at that time knows that it is not the darkest part of the day. The fourth is the farmers’ morning. It is actually the ‘morning’ used in Genesis’, “evening and morning.” Our world is not mid-day, like heaven (Rev 21-22). Jesus is the dawn of the New Creation. The meaning of keeping our eyes on Jesus is already interpreted by Scripture in Hebrews 12:2-3.

  35. Dana Roberts // July 21, 2013 at 11:59 pm // Reply

    “The rich are wise in their own eyes; one who is poor and discerning sees how deluded they are.” (Proverbs 28:11) When we speak of Prince, we may not see how delusional he is if we do not follow the progression of Biblical teaching. If we compare our American life with that in Biblical times or in most of the world, nearly everyone attending Prince’s or Osteen’s messages are rich and successful . . . but for a few things. We don’t have laborers dragging marble to make sumptuous palaces. To the world’s poor our walk-in closets are sumptuous bedrooms. In the 1840’s a middle class American closet had room for only two suits. I think Prince and Ellis both need to see that Paul was heavenly rich, in prison, writing his 2nd letter to Timothy. Old Paul knew better. He saw the joy of death in service to God. Any gain I make is the result of hard work. God’s work tells me to work hard, and not slumber. In two months I should have enough money to fixed my broken tooth. I don’t need them all replaced with pearly whites.–age 64.

    • Thank you, Dana. I have stopped my participation in this discussion as I find the notion that God wants to bless all of his children beyond their basic needs nauseating, Biblically ludicrous and historically untenable. But your comment is like a fresh breeze through these corridors.

  36. markarcher99 // July 22, 2013 at 2:15 am // Reply

    We are blessed to have these different preachers but we shouldnt put our faith on everything that they are teaching.. There is no such thing as a perfect preacher. I love John Mcarthur, John Piper and Joseph Prince but I noticed that somewhat there are small errors from some of their preachings. The Holy Spirit and the word of God is always the best teacher. I love how Joseph Prince preaches grace and Christ finished work but I dont like the way he stresses on prosperity and wealth. Not all christians are materially prosperous even those who are rich in faith. You can go to my church to see many of them. 😀

    In my opinion, we are not suppose to be conscious of these things but rather be conscious of Jesus. In everything that we do, we shouldnt expect a return from God to bless us with these material riches or else some people becomes expectant as they want the wealth right away thinking that this is what God wants them to be. Jesus alone is enough.. Apostle paul said that we need to learn how to be contented with what we have but at the same time enjoy if God blesses us and share it with others. Philippians 4:11-13

  37. I went to church and got saved young and i had never heard of healing. Then i heard of it from a church i visited also i heard this Bible is God’s love letter to you . you are who it says you are, you can do what it says you can do. I never heard of laying on of hands or any such thing i came to believe it all passed away. I was told tongues passed away. I could not lift my right arm all the way up only to my shoulder. I went to my new friends in Christ a husband and wife and sat down and they laid hands on my and prayed. I believed it recieved it then and thanked God every day in Jesus Name even though i still could not lift my arm. others told me to go to the dr. and inside i knew not to as i had come to far in believeing and one day a couple months later. my arm went up. Them same thing happened when i had a sore that would not heal on my back afterward i went to the skin dr. and he said it was an amazing healing late to tell me its not for today..Praise be to my Lord Jesus for all he has done for us. I have many miracles in my life ..i was hit by a drunk driver at 7 and drug 350 feet under his car in the 40’s ..i am alive by a miracle story also..
    I never had much victory in my life but since hearing about the Grace and love of Jesus they are all falling away like dry leaves ..thank you

    • This reply is to Alice…Praise God you finally heard the whole Gospel and believed it! What a great testimony…

  38. Right on. Thank you taking the time to get the quick facts out there. Can’t wait for many more believer to see what the scriptures really say.

  39. The promise of salvation to those that believe is a sure thing; so sure because God took an oath on His own name (Heb 6) to guarantee our place in heaven, so sure because he said it from prophets of old through to the apostles; in literally hundred of verses of Scriptures. Such an overwhelming bulk of Scriptures just to point us to our precious Savior who came and die to give us the righteousness that allows us to stand before God without shame.

    Then I saw in Scriptures accounts of those that are blessed with riches, but also those that went through horrible circumstances with no end in sight. Our church has a family with 5 brothers and sisters that are slowly losing their physical strength due to muscular dystrophy. Some of their relatives have become angry with God because of this trouble, and it has been going on for decades.

    Recently I had the joy of leading a Sunday School class to help them understand the topic of Law vs. Grace, and three among the five have come back to church. It’s the assurance of salvation that had removed their doubt of God’s grace and mercies upon them, and neutralized the bitterness. These days they start to develop problem swallowing on top of other physical troubles. But one of the man’s wife expressed her amazement that as physically weak as they are, they are now the ones to urge her not to be late for church.

    Will they be rich? Or will they be poor? One thing they know, they can’t wait to meet God with the biggest smile on their faces.

    • Nick, now that they realize that God is not mad at them…. no telling what kind of physical ailments might just fall off of their bodies.

  40. Passion are you serious God allows cancer to teach you something. Holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. People can make God’s Word of no effect in their personal lives. Heb 4:2 says God’s Word will not profit people unless they mix it with faith. So the Word will not profit anyone who doesn’t believe it, but God’s Word itself doesn’t lose any power. His word is true that Christ died so that by his stripes we are healed. But yet you believe that God works in the law of sin and death and put’s cancer on someone to make them suffer? You might say, “God could stop Satan if He wanted to. Therefore, the devil only does what God allows Him to do.” That’s not true. That’s a religious tradition that will render you passive and prey to the devil…

  41. I fully believe in free will, but anybody that does not believe in the sovereignty of God has a view of a weak God. That means that many souls are going to hell and God cannot do anything about it. Limited atonement is the only thing that makes sense if you consider scripture. We are all under the curse of sin. When we are born we start dying. Deep Bible believing Christians are also suffering and dying. It gives one a deep assurance that God is not crossing His fingers and hoping that people will come to faith. He has already written the script untill the end of this world and beyond. Limited atonement is the only explanation for this. How can God give us the full revelation if He has not chosen His own? By the looks of any other argument Satan is winning the war on this planet hands down, but because God is sovereign He will accomplish His will. Grace means that I had nothing to do with my salvation. It was given to me.

    • God is the God of the living g and not the dead, Jesus is life and when in him we have life God will lose nothing.

  42. “or because they think we’re better off poor and sick (even while they’re working hard to save money and stay healthy).” That is a good point.

    Good article.

  43. “The more occupied you are with Jesus, the more money follows after you!” – this I see is the “best” quotation. I don’t thing it demands comment.

  44. The fact that many many many biblical teachers consider Joseph prince a false teacher is not only a red flag for me but it is a flag on fire.
    Pause long enough to ask WHY they say Prince is a false teacher before agreeing with him because I will not come near him until I know why they are so afraid of him.

    • It’s a red flag for me to, but for completely different reasons. It shows me how far some have wandered from the truth that they would fear a man who preaches good news and wants the best for them.

    • I will say there are many many many true biblical teachers who are now teaching the same or similar things as Joseph Prince. Much of what he teaches is not new but becoming more common now.
      Honestly the best thing for you to do is listen to his teachings and discern for yourself if what he preaches/teaches is the truth. Do not rely on what others say or suggest.

    • momzilla76 // July 30, 2015 at 2:45 am // Reply

      As I have been around the red flag wavers, or at least some of them. I know very well why they are flapping that flag around. Their flesh does not like being told that it is faith in Jesus alone and His blood offered once that makes us approved by the Father. Their flesh wants to contribute to the approval process so they can puff themselves up about how they are such wonderful Christians.

      • You know, this is pretty off topic but I’ve prayed to God for salvation many many times (you know, that if confess Jesus is lord and believe that he has been raised…), but I’ve never had peace after that.
        And this lack of peace is what keeps me going back to that prayer.
        They say at faith you immediately receive the Holy Spirit.
        But shouldn’t you at least..feel it? (I mean this is God inside of you!!!)
        The only thing I’ve recieved is that I’ve become more receptive to when I sin.
        You know deep grief over a lie or whatever.
        But do I now live my life because I love God??
        I mean, do I do everything because my heart is “filled with love” and I want to do nothing but worship and love God? No.
        I don’t know. Maybe you hyper grace people have hearts that are exploding with love and peace and joy—which gives evidence that you’ve had SAVIGN faith.
        But I don’t have this. And I’m not sure if this shows Im not saved yet because the fruit of the spirit should be appearing in my life but my lack of peace speaks for itself, plus the fear of dying and meeting God because I just feel I haven’t really “clicked” yet maybe also shwos something God is trying to tell me.

      • Doug Cohenour // August 8, 2015 at 6:17 am //

        Hey Dan,

        Don’t be discouraged because you haven’t “felt” something as compared to someone else, or someone’s description of what you “should feel”.
        Salvation, and faith, are gifts from God. The enhanced receptivity to sin could be considered an indicator that God has “saved” you. People who are lost don’t care about sin, per se.

        Loving God a certain amount (defined by the quality or quantity) is simply a works based system of performance. We are saved by grace through faith, and even that, or all of that, is not of ourselves. So God does not demand that we love Him a certain amount, or in a certain way, or expressed in a certain way, in order to be saved. Love grows over time. It would be a huge burden to expect a certain quality of love to develop immediately after salvation, when a person really doesn’t know all that much or has not spent that much time in the Word.

        In my tradition, those who are Baptized receive the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins, faith, life, and salvation the moment they are born of the the water and the Spirit. They receive this because of the faithfulness of God and the power of His Word, not because of their internal feelings or the external acts they do.

        I suggest that you spend time in the Word, working through the Gospels and the Letters to the churches, and not worry about if you are saved or not. Do you believe that God is faithful, and that He will do exactly as He has promised for those who believe in all who Jesus is and what He has accomplished in your behalf? Then rest in that faith.

        Don’t worry about how you express it, or how you feel. When you confess your sins, God is faithful, and just, to forgive you of your sin and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. Why? Because of what Jesus has accomplished on your behalf by His perfect life and His perfect and completely fulfilling death in your place.

        Therefore, having been declared righteous by faith, you already have peace with God because of our Lord, Jesus Christ. And not only that, because of Christ you have access by faith into this grace in which we all stand, and now you can rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which you will see with your own eyes one day. (Rom. 5:1-2)

        Have faith in what God has already done for you. Rest in His accomplishments, and put no stock in your own. That includes your feelings.


      • come on guys… grace people must be gracious. Don’t push someone that can not receive the abundant grace idea. Remember that when Jesus lived in Far Nahum, He did lots of Miracles and the society still not believed in Him. Grace is revealed to those who received His grace. Is a gift.. Jesus bless y’all

  45. Amen. I sometimes have a rough time believing for his success in my life. its not about my success. Prosperity absolutely. Our God owns a thousand cattle on a thousand hills. You bet he can bless us here on earth beyond anything we could ever imagine.

  46. I am coming in here late, after reading a few comments above, I did want to point out that I just read where Pastor Prince like does not take a salary from his church and has not since 2009. I know Cathy had the question about tithing, I also don’t have that revelation, giving but not as a tithe. However, they always say before Pastor Prince’s broadcast that they believe tithes belong to the ‘local church’ not encouraging tithing to their church and like I said he has not received a salary from his church since 2009, so he is not living off of the tithes. I was afraid by Cathy’s response that she believed he was.

  47. Kathy Solomon // June 26, 2016 at 5:18 pm // Reply

    Love the words so much and have truly impacted my spiritual life

  48. Praise the Lord God wants us to be a blessing and he wants to bless us that includes blessing us with money.

  49. 1 Chronicles 4:9-10King James Version (KJV)

    “9 And Jabez was more honourable than his brethren: and his mother called his name Jabez, saying, Because I bare him with sorrow.

    10 And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.”

    I find this prayer…a blatant request for blessings…interesting.
    It begins in saying that Jabez was Honorable. And his mother bore him in pain. Jabez doubtless was grieved by such pain, else why was her pain mentioned to us?
    The honorable Jabez knew from Whom his blessings came, and requested & received prosperity.
    “Bless me indeed!” AND “Enlarge my coast!”
    He asked in the same breath for God’s ” “hand be with me” AND to be” kept from evil”..for that would make him unhappy. Those who love God are honorable, they seek first His kingdom.
    As His children, they ask for honorable blessings…to prosper without sinning.
    The Love of money is the root of all evil..asking for prosperity isn’t.
    To love God with everything in us…and our neighbor as ourself…is to fulfill the law under transforming grace, is it not?
    Sin….prosperity without humility & love…would grieve an honorable servant.
    Jabez was honorable.. he asked for prosperity & it pleased God to grant him what he asked.
    Solomon asked for wisdom…God was pleased, and added wealth to the heart that first sought wisdom.
    Both Jabez & Solomon sought God first.
    God isn’t fooled…if we “seek Him” just to gain prosperity, what do you think will happen?
    If you love and trust God to help you in everything, and Ask Him to prosper you both spiritually and materially, what do you think will happen?

  50. Methusala joy // July 29, 2018 at 3:25 am // Reply

    During the ministry of Lord Jesus on earth any instance of poor being made rich. Like…… and Jesus touched or spoke one word and the poor man or woman was made rich immediately supernaturally or gradually ???

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.